I fixed it.....the wet sumping that is. (2014)

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olChris said:
My approach was.. A slack zip tie that fit between kicker and valve. Pull the zip tie off and the valve opens auto due to the spring fitted. Cant forget to turn on. If i forget to shut valve off for a few days, no big deal.

I fixed it.....the wet sumping that is. (2014)


I fixed it.....the wet sumping that is. (2014)
Click to expand...

Very impressive piece of gear. You could get away with telling folk your Commando is actually a submarine, wish I could!
How many times a day do you have to cut and replace that plastic tie? Must get very expensive.

The MkIII need not look like a submarine with valve levers. It came with a factory fitted non return valve. This shit ain't needed.
The MIII came with lots off Commando improvements except combat performance. It certainly doesn't drain oil back to crankcase then depressingly all over your polished cement garage floor. Or your bed if kept there.

This is the most outrageous abortion I've ever seen hanging off a Commando. Beaten only by some types sitting on the seat, who should have in fact gone down in a submarine. Forever!
 
phil yates said:
How many times a day do you have to cut and replace that plastic tie? Must get very expensive.
Click to expand...

Looks like it just hooks it over both levers so no need to cut it.
 
FUNCTIONALLY, if the valve is spring-loaded open, that seems like reasonable way to approach this if you REALLY feel wet-sumping is a problem. Appearance-wise, well that's an "eye of the beholder" kind of thing. I couldn't deal with it but it isn't nearly as bad looking as a totally stock Hi-rider! :)
 
olChris said:
My approach was.. A slack zip tie that fit between kicker and valve. Pull the zip tie off and the valve opens auto due to the spring fitted. Cant forget to turn on.
Click to expand...

What about the electric starter? :shock:
 
phillyskip said:
I got very tired of my new Norton wet sumping every time I went for a ride. Now, some of you are going to say "That PhillySkip is nuts" but this is what I did: I checked out the McMaster Carr catalogue and found a beautiful 3/8 ID "Ball Valve" ....not too large and carefully fitted it in my "feed" line. The valve has about a 2'' thin handle. When the valve is "on" the handle is parallel with the battery box support. I tuck the entire valve behind the support and in this way it can't close. When the valve is in the "off" position it faces the kick starter....you can't miss it sticking out there. On my ignition key I have a large red flag that says "Turn the oil on".

So there you have it ....one man's solution to a nagging problem!.........Fraternally,Skip
Click to expand...

Phil
Either I'm about to learn something about Commandos I never knew, or there is a misunderstanding on my part.
Wet sumping every time you go for a ride?
Or wet sumping AFTER every time you go for a ride?

A red flag on a MkIII would have to say "No pressing that green button until oil is on".
 
mike996 said:
A fix that is dangerous as opposed to the "problem," which is not. ;)
Click to expand...

At last, some common sense on the "problem".
The standard MIII will actually wet sump a bit.
Mine travelled three and a half months USA to Australia.
It had wet sumped a bit. But so?
It roared into life, and all was back in the oil tank in minutes.
Why would you stick a god awful looking red lever off the side of a Commando to avoid this?
 
Johnnymac said:
I sent my timing cover and oil pump to AMR in Arizona. For $75 they machined the timing cover for a spring ball check valve and took apart my oil pump and installed o-rings. No more wet sumping for me. I don't know why everyone isn't doing this. Took them about a week and a half. One of the best mods I've had done yet.
Click to expand...

My last Combat had exactly the same and it was very effective.
But I hadn't asked for it and didn't care about wet sumping.
 
1up3down said:
You will forget. It only takes once.
Click to expand...

DogT is right, you WILL forget, you think you won't but you will.

I did, I forgot.

In 2002 I installed an identical WOG(water oil gas) 3/8 ID lever valve on my oil feed line.

I then installed a steel fishing "leader line" from my ignition key to the WOG valve so that the key could turn on only when the valve lever was inline, in the flow position.

This worked well, for about a month, when the steel leader line stretched in combination with the connections at both ends loosening from usage, so I removed it, and trusted myself to turn the lever ON.

And a couple of weeks later I forgot, but fortunately rode only three blocks before realizing it was not on and reached down to turn it on.

And then about a year later one I day took off, and rode two MILES with no oil flow before I remembered and reached down to turn it on. Did you know a Commando will run for miles with no oil, neither did I?

And that was it, no more.

Nowadays I still have the WOG valve in place, but it is safety wired always in the ON position because I never go more than 3/4 days without riding anyway so let it wet sump.

The only reason I still have it on at all is to be able to occasionally service the timing chain and need to shut off oil flow, or when I know that I will not be riding for more than about five days or so, then I cut the safety wire and turn the flow off, and wire it up again in less than a minute when back in the saddle.

The point is that myself and others are simply advising you that no one is perfect, infallible, except the Pope, and that yes there will come a time when you will forget.

Try my safety wire idea, works well for me?
Click to expand...

I certainly didn't know you could go two miles on your Commando with no oil.
But I do know (well guess really) you probably achieved 10,000 miles bore wear in a lousy two miles.
 
phil yates said:
[
Phil
Either I'm about to learn something about Commandos I never knew, or there is a misunderstanding on my part.
Wet sumping every time you go for a ride?
Or wet sumping AFTER every time you go for a ride?

A red flag on a MkIII would have to say "No pressing that green button until oil is on".
Click to expand...

Phil, you are thinking of TRUE wet sumping where the scavenge cannot keep up with the feed. This was an issue for the 72 race bike crankcases because of the poor scavenge set up.

This wet sumping is when oil seeps through the oil pump into the crankcase from the tank when not running from anywhere from a day to a few weeks.
 
phil yates said:
Johnnymac said:
I sent my timing cover and oil pump to AMR in Arizona. For $75 they machined the timing cover for a spring ball check valve and took apart my oil pump and installed o-rings. No more wet sumping for me. I don't know why everyone isn't doing this. Took them about a week and a half. One of the best mods I've had done yet.
Click to expand...

My last Combat had exactly the same and it was very effective.
But I hadn't asked for it and didn't care about wet sumping.
Click to expand...


I must point out that mine wetsumped so badly that I would lose half my oil tank in just a few days... So it was a problem for me.
 
But you are not really "losing" any oil (unless it's leaking onto the floor). It's just temporarily in the crankcase. Shortly after starting, all is bak to normal as far as oil location. Yes, a lot of oil in the case will make kick starting more difficult though I have to say that on my bike (pre-Alton E start) the first kick after sitting for several months was noticeably "stiffer" but subsequent kicks seemed normal. After sitting for that long it usually took 3, maybe four kicks to start. Normally, if the bike was ridden once or twice a week, it was a one-kick starter.

In two Commados I have owned, my current one (a '73) and a '71 back in the 70's, I have never seen any kind of issue with wet sumping. Heck, back then I never even heard the term. On the internet I have read stories of blown crank seals but I would think that the combination of wetsumping and the alton e-start (which spins the heck out of the engine) would blow a seal if anything would. But it has had no such effect on my commando and it sits for months at a time without running.
 
pete.v said:
phil yates said:
[
Phil
Either I'm about to learn something about Commandos I never knew, or there is a misunderstanding on my part.
Wet sumping every time you go for a ride?
Or wet sumping AFTER every time you go for a ride?

A red flag on a MkIII would have to say "No pressing that green button until oil is on".
Click to expand...

Phil, you are thinking of TRUE wet sumping where the scavenge cannot keep up with the feed. This was an issue for the 72 race bike crankcases because of the poor scavenge set up.

This wet sumping is when oil seeps through the oil pump into the crankcase from the tank when not running from anywhere from a day to a few weeks.
Click to expand...

I think we're talking the same Pete.
I'm talking oil from tank returning back into crankcase when bike not being used. Mine went 3.5 months (unless someone rode it from Iowa to Australia - possible but not what the importer said :) ) and whilst I didn't time it, I'd guess it was one minute max after engine start that all oil was back in tank. Just can't see that as an issue.

Phil
 
L.A.B. said:
phil yates said:
How many times a day do you have to cut and replace that plastic tie? Must get very expensive.
Click to expand...

Looks like it just hooks it over both levers so no need to cut it.
Click to expand...

Why do you spoil all my fun Les?
Yes I could see that, but did olChris?
 
mike996 said:
FUNCTIONALLY, if the valve is spring-loaded open, that seems like reasonable way to approach this if you REALLY feel wet-sumping is a problem. Appearance-wise, well that's an "eye of the beholder" kind of thing. I couldn't deal with it but it isn't nearly as bad looking as a totally stock Hi-rider! :)
Click to expand...

You mean to say some folk bought them then modified them further?
Why not just by a Harley and be done with it?
 
Johnnymac said:
phil yates said:
Johnnymac said:
I sent my timing cover and oil pump to AMR in Arizona. For $75 they machined the timing cover for a spring ball check valve and took apart my oil pump and installed o-rings. No more wet sumping for me. I don't know why everyone isn't doing this. Took them about a week and a half. One of the best mods I've had done yet.
Click to expand...

My last Combat had exactly the same and it was very effective.
But I hadn't asked for it and didn't care about wet sumping.
Click to expand...


I must point out that mine wetsumped so badly that I would lose half my oil tank in just a few days... So it was a problem for me.
Click to expand...

If you don't want a MkIII John,
you pay a terrible terrible price!
Yours is not wet sumping, it's seriously pissing oil internally (not common on Commandos).
As opposed to pissing oil externally (very common on pre MkIII Commandos).
 
I don't use the Seeley very often so I disconnect the feed line and put a bolt up it and tighten the clip. There is still the danger of forgetting to re-connect it, and recently I even left a clip loose on the return line and wondered why it was pissing oli onto the ground. I've bought a ball valve however I've never been game enough to use it. Our racing controlling body has recently got smart and brought in a rule that jubilee clips may not be used on external oil lines. All fittings must be of the permanent (marine ? ) type. That looks like being a problem for anyone racing a Norton twin which wet sumps. The bullshit never stops in historic racing.
 
acotrel said:
I don't use the Seeley very often so I disconnect the feed line and put a bolt up it and tighten the clip. There is still the danger of forgetting to re-connect it, and recently I even left a clip loose on the return line and wondered why it was pissing oli onto the ground. I've bought a ball valve however I've never been game enough to use it. Our racing controlling body has recently got smart and brought in a rule that jubilee clips may not be used on external oil lines. All fittings must be of the permanent (marine ? ) type. That looks like being a problem for anyone racing a Norton twin which wet sumps. The bullshit never stops in historic racing.
Click to expand...

And like the bullshit everywhere acotrel, it will just get worse and worse and worse.
Hopefully we'll be banging out of this joint first, before we drown in bureaocratic bullshit.
It'll seep all over the planet and kill everything insight.
 
L.A.B. said:
olChris said:
My approach was.. A slack zip tie that fit between kicker and valve. Pull the zip tie off and the valve opens auto due to the spring fitted. Cant forget to turn on.
Click to expand...

What about the electric starter? :shock:
Click to expand...

I make it a point of not using it... gets one mild kick/push with no ignition (after fuel n oil been on for a min or so) Sits for 2 months then starts 2nd kick..... Works for me>>
 
I think the 'no jubilee clip' bullshit started in the UK with the CRMC, most Nortons running with CRMC have the regulation type crimped O clip to saitisfy the scrutineer, and a jubilee clip to hold the hose on!

Of course the rules states that these clips are required on all oil hoses subject to internal pressure!.....no its not worth having the discussion!

As fow MkIIIs....well I used a MkIII timing cover, and each time I took it off the plunger was stuck in......it never worked...I nearly bought a new timing cover for my current build...from Norman White, when I told him that the only one Andover Norton supply today is the MkIII design, he said, every MKIII cover I ever removed has the plunger stuck in.....


The idea of a decent ball valve in the cover sounds good and about the only sensible engineering 'solution', but the idea of a serviceable oil pump sounds good too, as does using a Comnoz style breather that helps clear the sump quickly....but the real deal for a race bike...is drain and refill, after use, or before next use....for a road bike....I would recommend riding more often ;-)
 
phil yates said:
olChris said:
My approach was.. A slack zip tie that fit between kicker and valve. Pull the zip tie off and the valve opens auto due to the spring fitted. Cant forget to turn on. If i forget to shut valve off for a few days, no big deal.

I fixed it.....the wet sumping that is. (2014)


I fixed it.....the wet sumping that is. (2014)
Click to expand...

Very impressive piece of gear. You could get away with telling folk your Commando is actually a submarine, wish I could!
How many times a day do you have to cut and replace that plastic tie? Must get very expensive.

The MkIII need not look like a submarine with valve levers. It came with a factory fitted non return valve. This shit ain't needed.
The MIII came with lots off Commando improvements except combat performance. It certainly doesn't drain oil back to crankcase then depressingly all over your polished cement garage floor. Or your bed if kept there.

This is the most outrageous abortion I've ever seen hanging off a Commando. Beaten only by some types sitting on the seat, who should have in fact gone down in a submarine. Forever!
Click to expand...
..

Mmmmmh, Your ignorance re "wet sumping" is noted... Have a nice day....
 
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