Hogslayer details anyone?

jseng1 said:

fiatfan said:

...how the hell did they stop the cylinders from taking off... 150+ BHP each!
Tommy

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Fred Eikers land speed 920 on Nitrous (below) puts out 150 hp. It spun the R wheel at 135mph on the Bonneville salt and crashed but I think its on the street now (with nitrous). It has a solid crank, longer steel rods and lighter pistons to help keep it together - but the motor is holding up fine.

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what frame is that?

jaguar said:

what frame is that?

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My guess is that it's a custom build for LSR/drag racing.

Nope. It's a Caffrey Vendetta, a Seeley replica. The bike is the ex road racer from Martin Adam's Commonwealth Racing team, but heavily modified by Fred for landspeed racing. After the crash, he's now restoring it back to original condition. I posted a bunch of info on it here on the forum. A search on Commonwealth Norton, or Caffrey, or something similar should find it.

Ken

jaguar said:

jseng1 said:

fiatfan said:

...how the hell did they stop the cylinders from taking off... 150+ BHP each!
Tommy

Click to expand...

Fred Eikers land speed 920 on Nitrous (below) puts out 150 hp. It spun the R wheel at 135mph on the Bonneville salt and crashed but I think its on the street now (with nitrous). It has a solid crank, longer steel rods and lighter pistons to help keep it together - but the motor is holding up fine.

Click to expand...

what frame is that?

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Its a Caffrey (Seely style) road racing frame. Originally raced at Daytona in 1987 with Nourish one-piece crank, Crower titanium rods, short stroke head modified to a bathtub combustion chamber, and lots of other trick stuff. Chnis Scott raced against me on it at Laguna Seca where it blew it cases. Ken Canaga owed it for awhile, then sold it to Fred. It ran over 150 mph and one year it tied the record. Around 2007 Fred called me and ordered the longer rods. It hasn't blown up since.

Just ran across this picture of the Hogslayer in one of it's intermediate configurations, after the Atlas cylinders, but before the 850 engines. You can see the details of the Dunstall 810 cylinders. Click on the picture, and you should see the full picture.



Ken

Thanks for the great picture Ken.

As a friend and fellow road racer of John Gregory's, we spoke at length on several occasions regarding the hogslayer. He stated the internals were pretty much stock other than maybe pistons. Nothing to hide here. Listening to some of the audio of the bike it really did not sound like they were revving the guts out of it and this fits with my recollection of discussions with Mr. Gregory. The nemesis of Norton twins is high rpm for extended periods and drag racing is not that.

The picture that you provided Ken is interesting as you can see what appears to be heavy weld around the drive side of the engine case; this weld is a period modification to bolster the weak drive side main bearing support which was prone to cracking. Also peculiar is the apparent lack of cooling fins at the cylinder barrel/cylinder head juncture. It almost looks like the top of the barrel was welded up solid.

Dances with Shrapnel said:

Thanks for the great picture Ken.

As a friend and fellow road racer of John Gregory's, we spoke at length on several occasions regarding the hogslayer. He stated the internals were pretty much stock other than maybe pistons. Nothing to hide here. Listening to some of the audio of the bike it really did not sound like they were revving the guts out of it and this fits with my recollection of discussions with Mr. Gregory. The nemesis of Norton twins is high rpm for extended periods and drag racing is not that.

The picture that you provided Ken is interesting as you can see what appears to be heavy weld around the drive side of the engine case; this weld is a period modification to bolster the weak drive side main bearing support which was prone to cracking. Also peculiar is the apparent lack of cooling fins at the cylinder barrel/cylinder head juncture. It almost looks like the top of the barrel was welded up solid.

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Very interesting to hear from someone who actually spoke to the man who built these engines, great! Somewhere deep inside you (well at least I do ) want it to be true, that there were stock internals in those engines, I mean they are Nortons, and we love them right :wink: .
I´ve seen those cylinders in another pic, and was wondering about the way they looked, not quite the normal 810 :? . The welding seems to be very high up on the casing, must be a big strengthening piece welded in there, or could they simply have cut a piece out of the case, and welded a thicker bit in there, to take a heavier bearing? And what´s the story with the way the cyl studs look like? Not the standard nuts as far as I can see?
Tommy

it was if you reed my previous post. it was an attempt to stop striped head bolts.

Dances with Shrapnel said:

Thanks for the great picture Ken.
Also peculiar is the apparent lack of cooling fins at the cylinder barrel/cylinder head juncture. It almost looks like the top of the barrel was welded up solid.

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bill said:

it was if you reed my previous post. it was an attempt to stop striped head bolts.

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Who has time to reed posts........................... but I did go back and read your post (somehow must have skipped it in my haste) and you nailed it. Makes sense to me. Being on Nitro, they probably did not need the cooling.

fiatfan said:

Very interesting to hear from someone who actually spoke to the man who built these engines, great! Somewhere deep inside you (well at least I do ) want it to be true, that there were stock internals in those engines, I mean they are Nortons, and we love them right :wink: ........................................
Tommy

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As important is knowing the person a little bit. John Gregory is very gregarious, willing to share his knowledge and always helpful. Maybe in the day (1970's) there would be some sort of secrecy when competing but this is what, +40 years ago that they built and competed. I have no reason to doubt the man knowing who he is and how he is. Furthermore, from my own experience with Commandos in race and street trim as well as dabbling with a Drouin supercharger in my spent youth I can say that it all makes sense and passes the reasonable test.

Thanks for the additional info, John, particularly the validation of the stock bottom end parts. The Norton crankshafts and cases that I've broken mostly (I'm not counting the broken steel rod) weren't a case of the parts suddenly exploding, but more of them cracking from the fatigue of extended high rpm road racing, with the cracks growing until eventual failure (or replacement if found in time). The short duration bursts of drag racing don't produce failure as rapidly, as long as we're not talking about so much power that the strength of the materials is exceeded.

Now if I could just come up with a good isolastic mounting system for a twin engine Commando street bike.... :lol:

Ken

fiatfan said:

I agree, just quoted parts of that article. Considering John Gregory´s abilities as a mechanic and inventor, one wouldn´t be too surprised if he had done some inventive work inside their engines as well. But it seems there isn´t any records of the interior? One should also keep in mind that if Sunset Motors did have support (substantial or not) from the Norton factory, they would probably like the "facts" that the engines were almost stock inside...

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Just before the picture of me on Hogslayer I was in TC's motorhome having a few drinks and listening to the tale of how the bike was built up for the 1975 season. I remember talk of technical stuff followed by 'mortgage on my house' followed by ,then I received the telegram from from Norton saying sorry we are bankrupt......

This has nothing to do with the internals of Hogslayer’s engine, but nevertheless thought a few pictures from the NHRA meet at Beech Bend Raceway in Bowling Green, KY, circa 1976, might be of passing interest. Hogslayer’s primary competition was Joe Smith’s King Rat hog - a twin-engine HD shovelhead, and the hog that needed to be slayed.

The attached images are scans from tired old prints. I don’t know where my negatives are, but perhaps these images are better than no images at all.

The venue was simultaneously tremendous and scary, as the drag strip was narrow and set down in a concrete-sided trough from the starting line to beyond the bleachers, and any mishap in this region of the strip would expose the driver to the unforgiving concrete confines. Don’t recall anyone getting in trouble or getting hurt though. Can't provide the crackle of nitro, but hopefully the images might convey some small measure of the excitement. TC spanked the hog handily at this meet and I believe thereafter.

Hogslayer engine detail

Hogslayer in queue


Hogslayer in the bleach box


Hogslayer in pre-stage - Joe Smith’s King Rat in far lane


Hogslayer staged – really like how low and blended onto the bike TC is in this image

The above post limited me to 5 pictures and wanted to share a few more. Below are a few more images of interesting Top Fuel machinery and the equipment Hogslayer had to better back in the day. I've got more interesting stuff, but in the interest of brevity and being of non-Norton content I'll draw the line here.

Joe Smith’s King Rat

Boris Murray with the Denco Kawa triple-triple – love the cobra emblems on the cylinder heads

A Kawa twin engine twin turboed

Great pictures, WZ. Just goes to show that too much is almost enough.

Ken

Looks like TC had a pair of British mags behind the cylinders in this instance. I think he must have tried every combination!

If you're on F/B WZ, theres a page called "old drag bikes and where are they now". I'm sure the greybeards on there would love to see these (and others).

Just curious, in the Hogslayer engine detail image above, there are brass tags attached near the serial number block on the engine cases. What significance, if any, do the tags have? Do they suggest a particular year range or motorcycle model that the cases were used on or what? Thanks for any insight you might be able to offer.

PS - the red bungie cord in the vicinity of a traditional battery box is a nice touch. Wonder what it was securing?

In the first of WZ507:s pic there´s some strange black spots under the bike, wonder what that is... :mrgreen: . Plus I just love the bungie cord, totally wrong in this context, but still probably doing something important, and doing it fine :wink: . Anyway, great pics, both of the Norton and the other bikes!
Tommy

WZ507 said:

Just curious, in the Hogslayer engine detail image above, there are brass tags attached near the serial number block on the engine cases. What significance, if any, do the tags have? Do they suggest a particular year range or motorcycle model that the cases were used on or what? Thanks for any insight you might be able to offer.

PS - the red bungie cord in the vicinity of a traditional battery box is a nice touch. Wonder what it was securing?

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Dommie or Atlas botton end, remember they were running this bike before Commandos came out, 1964 I think they started racing, I have to watch the DVD again been some time ago I watched it.

Ashley

Thanks for sharing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Including the non-Norton stuff.

Trying to image the crackle of the triple - triple....
Nine expansion chambers!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: