Get out the straight jacket

Today, at the delusional store

That twin engined Benelli is sure interesting to look at. At least, I assume it's a twin engined Benelli--I knew they made a single that was shaped like an egg, but this one looks like 2 singles side by side.

That fastback by the looks in wire is a piece of work

KiwiShane said:

That fastback by the looks in wire is a piece of work

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It is. But seriously, some people have WAY too much time on their hands !

Ok, praps I’m just jealous…

Fast Eddie said:

Just a thought for your new engine build plans… Andy Molnar is developing an 8 valve Norton head.

Jus’ sayin’ …

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Really, pray tell.....

BritTwit said:

Really, pray tell.....

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Not much to add really.
He’s picking up where Piper left off I believe, but is pretty much redesigning it.
Like I said previously, he has good form with the work he did creating the 4 valve Manx, so I personally think he stands a chance of doing a good job with this.
And before you ask… no, it won’t fit the 961 !!

Fast Eddie said:

Not much to add really.
He’s picking up where Piper left off I believe, but is pretty much redesigning it.
Like I said previously, he has good form with the work he did creating the 4 valve Manx, so I personally think he stands a chance of doing a good job with this.
And before you ask… no, it won’t fit the 961 !!

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Do you whether he's developing a supercharger kit?

The project this thread started out discussing will not proceed quickly. Turns out parts are not likely to show up for a while. May not get started until early 2023.

I am planning on revisiting the NEB single row chain clutch thing again. Turns out the failure I had with that clutch was because the clutch I bought comes with a dry plate clutch pack. Using oil in the primary made the plates stick together, so it stopped disengaging properly. The lightweight steels don't want to let go of the frictions when wet with oil. Would have been nice if Brit Bike Bits had mentioned the clutches were meant to be run dry. A wet plate clutch pack can be purchased, but I'm not doing that if I can't modify the inner primary enough to get the clutch to fit correctly. (I shade tree barn yard engineered the fit to work last time.) When run dry they are usually run without an inner primary and basically only on track bikes, not street bikes. More of a Manx race bike part. I want to make it run dry with the inner primary on my P11 if at all possible. Will probably have to invest in a cush rear hub too, if I get it to work. Reason for the diversion back to the NEB clutch is more weight loss. I want to get the bike under 360lbs. Lighter crank, lighter barrels, and lighter clutch should do it.

No super charger or 8 valve Norton head in the plans for my old Norton iron horse ever.

Schwany said:

May not get started until early 2023.

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Early 2023 is in like 2 weeks

And regarding cush drives, have you checked out Pender's hub?

TomU said:

Early 2023 is in like 2 weeks

And regarding cush drives, have you checked out Pender's hub?

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Different earlier like February.

Yes, the pre-Commando one "might" work.
I have a spare rear Akront wheel for it if it's 40 spoke. Have not verified any details with Mr Pender regarding measurements. He is not familiar with the P11 anyway. Not many are. It is the red headed step child of the Norton lineup. Anywho... The width between my swing arm at the axle is wider and the axle is a different diameter from that of a Commando or pre-Commando slimline, so I'm not sure if his hub would work easily or at all. The sprocket offset and the narrower hub might and probably would put the rim in a funny location. I also could be over thinking it.

This is what a MAP Cycle piston and rod look like on my desk waiting for the crank and barrels.

MAP has similar performance marketing text to what Jim does regarding their long rods and pistons stating they are good to 9000RPM. Of course, that is on a motor that is built with a lot of care. I'll be happy with 7500 RPM once in a while.

Minor edit: The MAP Cycle rods are a little shorter than the Carrillo rods. JSM says the Carrillo rods are 6.4" MAP says their rods are 6.362" center to center.

Molnar crank and barrels got through the FedEx clearance process and are slowly moving through Great Britain. Will be interesting to see if they get here before 2023 arrives.

Looks like the NEB clutch refit is going to require moving the gearbox mount spacers from the timing side to the drive side. Gearbox needs to move a little closer to the drive side. You might need P11 wrenching experience for that spacer comment to make any sense. The alternative is to stick with the heavier AMC clutch and run it dry without a chain oil bath. I have a set of new Surflex plates I can use for that experiment. Advantage is the AMC clutch has the cush. The disadvantage is I won't get the weight reduced spinning on the end of the gearbox mainshaft I would get with the NEB clutch, and won't reach my under 360lbs wet bike weight goal.

Both clutches run dry would require that I manually oil the primary chain through the lower inspection hole in the outer primary before longer rides. Would do it every other ride on short test runs. I am prepared to do that, since I only ride that paint shaker 15-20 times a year on longer rides.

Don't know why I never considered moving the spacers!! Maybe I was concerned about getting the clutch sprocket out of line with the drive sprocket?

Junglebiker said:

Don't know why I never considered moving the spacers!! Maybe I was concerned about getting the clutch sprocket out of line with the drive sprocket?

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It's just a theory. It will be a pain in the arse with the motor in there to get the clearances and alignment squared away. That may be the reason you didn't consider it. The sprocket on the NEB clutch has the wrong offset from the hub. Almost none at all. The gearbox needs to move a lot to get the engine and clutch sprocket aligned and will put the rear chain extremely close to the back side of the inner primary cover. Might only have .125" of clearance, which could just grind away at the back of the inner cover when the bike is underway and the chain is moving around. I'm not sure I'm going to pursue it with a lot of passion. Using the heavier AMC clutch is a no brainer. It fits and the gears are aligned without doing anything special.

I may get after it a little today. It's about 33 degrees in my garage though. Not my favorite working conditions.

I've moved the gearbox over to the left on a couple of my Commandos to get clearance for larger rear tires. It required a good bit of fabrication here and there to make it work, and I expect you will have the same sort of experience doing it on the P11. In my case, I ran belt drives, so no problems with the chain oiling.

The only experience I had with manually oiling the chain was pretty discouraging. I was racing my PR at Laguna Seca back in 1978, and damaged the primary cover. It wouldn't hold oil, and no time left to fix it, so I tried just spraying the primary chain with chain lube. It didn't work too well. The chain snapped, jammed, and destroyed the primary covers.

On the other hand, I've known a couple of Norton racers who ran the earlier AMC clutch dry with no issues. They just greased the clutch bearings and used chain lube on the chain. They might have been using o-ring chain. It's been a while, and I don't recall all the details.

Ken

I couldn't get the Amc clutch to hold on the little 650ss, tried everything, wet, dry, new plates, new springs.
Herb Becker made it slip with his porting job and that was the end of it. The engine gives a good surge of power at about 4200 and that would always break the clutch hold in 3rd or 4th.
Even with the Newby belt drive and dry clutch on there I have to soak the springs up way tighter than I like. The Newby clutch does hold solid though. Once adjusted I've never had it break free like the AMC clutch always did.

Weird that others can get the AMC to hold on a 750 or even a hotrodded 750.

Glen

worntorn said:

I couldn't get the Amc clutch to hold on the little 650ss, tried everything, wet, dry, new plates, new springs.
Herb Becker made it slip with his porting job and that was the end of it. The engine gives a good surge of power at about 4200 and that would always break the clutch hold in 3rd or 4th.
Even with the Newby belt drive and dry clutch on there I have to soak the springs up way tighter than I like. The Newby clutch does hold solid though. Once adjusted I've never had it break free like the AMC clutch always did.

Weird that others can get the AMC to hold on a 750 or even a hotrodded 750.

Glen

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My AMC clutch held until I did the exhaust baffle modification and was experimenting with a synthetic oil. I was warned about the synth oil. It sort of worked after it got hot, but was a slipping fool when cold. Whichever clutch I end up using I'm going to run it dry. I have a feeling my little 750 is probably going to spin up fairly quick. I already have another my last build ever planned if I can't make a single primary chain clutch work.

lcrken said:

I've moved the gearbox over to the left on a couple of my Commandos to get clearance for larger rear tires. It required a good bit of fabrication here and there to make it work, and I expect you will have the same sort of experience doing it on the P11. In my case, I ran belt drives, so no problems with the chain oiling.

The only experience I had with manually oiling the chain was pretty discouraging. I was racing my PR at Laguna Seca back in 1978, and damaged the primary cover. It wouldn't hold oil, and no time left to fix it, so I tried just spraying the primary chain with chain lube. It didn't work too well. The chain snapped, jammed, and destroyed the primary covers.

On the other hand, I've known a couple of Norton racers who ran the earlier AMC clutch dry with no issues. They just greased the clutch bearings and used chain lube on the chain. They might have been using o-ring chain. It's been a while, and I don't recall all the details.

Ken

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Thanks for the thoughts based on your experience on the clutch. I won't use chain lube spray on chain. Don't like it. I will be lubricating the plates and rollers separately with a squirt can filled with my chain sauce blend through that 1.5" inspection hole. Tedious maintenance, but I think it'll hold up on the street as well as my rear chain does. Time will tell

An extra groovy feature? The MAP Cycle long rod conversion pistons have an accumulator groove that the JSM Wiseco pistons do not have. Just pointing it out for the heck of it. MAP rods are also a little shorter than the JSM Carrillo rods. MAP rods 6.362" JSM rods 6.4" both measurements center to center, unless somebody is rounding up.

I moved the inner primary back a little in the center which gave me better clearance for the NEB clutch. I do not have the clutch seated fully home on the mainshaft. Actually seated fully home would hit the sleeve gear on my gearbox and make the clutch inoperable. So... I had to do the same shade tree engineered BS I described in another thread about the NEB clutch. The AMC clutch goes up onto the mainshaft splines 18.46mm. My barnyard engineered spacer inside the female splines of the NEB clutch puts the NEB clutch up on the shaft 15.8mm. Maybe a little risky, but the NEB clutch weighs a lot less than the AMC clutch, so I think it'll be alright until it isn't. The AMC clutch pack alone weighs more than the entire NEB clutch assembled. Reason for not putting more meat up on the mainshaft is it puts the clutch sprocket out of alignment with the engine sprocket. Being out of alingment over that short run would be a ticket to disaster me thinks. Oh yeah, I have to get a Renold half link to make the primary chain the right length. It's a bit too close to the ass end of the primary.



The Molnar crank and barrels are here in the USA, but on the east coast, and I am on the west coast. Could still arrive before the new year starts depending on weather. Hopefully all in good shape after being handled by FedEx.