Fitting a magneto to Maney crank cases

lcrken said:
That was done by several folks back in the day to fit ARD and other mags to Commando 850 cases. I had one on a race bike for a while, but unfortunately didn't take any pictures. I do have pictures of some of the parts involved, posted below. I don't see any reason you couldn't do the same with Maney cases.

I do have this picture from someone else's bike with the conversion done by HPI, probably in the late '70s or early '80s.

View attachment 99634

This is the ARD mag with adapter plate.

View attachment 99638

This is a collection of parts used to modify the timing side, using Atlas parts.

View attachment 99635

And the inner side of the modified timing covers.

View attachment 99636

And the outside of the timing covers.

View attachment 99637

Ken
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Ken, do you recall if a different cam is required ?
 
Fast Eddie said:
Ken, do you recall if a different cam is required ?
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Two ways to go. You can use an Atlas design cam, or you can machine up an adapter cup and end screw to uses a Commando cam. This picture shows them in the lower right hand corner.

Fitting a magneto to Maney crank cases


Ken
 
lcrken said:
Two ways to go. You can use an Atlas design cam, or you can machine up an adapter cup and end screw to uses a Commando cam. This picture shows them in the lower right hand corner.

View attachment 99873

Ken
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Thanks again Ken.

I’m struggling to visualise how that all fits, and in particular, how it’s possible to fit the cam sprocket retaining nut. Can you explain that a little more please ?
 
ashman said:
Sorry to say FE but look at all the crap you have to install and all the mods you have to go through just to fit behind the motor, I know your not interested in installing one off the point's timing cover so all good there, thing is as well having a maggie sitting behind a hot motor is a worry of over heating the maggie, I have had 2 British motorcycles running Joe Hunts first one a 2 rare earth JH on my 81 Triumph Thunderbird that I clocked up 250k trouble free km's with the JH and the last 13 years now with the 4 rare earth JH on my Norton, no need to retarting it for starting first kick every time even when it's been sitting for sometime and hanging out in the cool air flow and the best thing above all easy to pull off to do any maintenance, but so far in 13 years I haven't touched it except for taking the top cover off to put a few drops of STP on the lube pad for the point's cam, yes it sticks out but I have been down 2 x now on the maggie side and the JH has survived each time, yes different story if set up on a race bike and the risks of coming off at high speed but my mate raced his race Triumph with a JH sticking out the side, using soft bolts that sheer off if he went down that side, by the way I ended up with that JH for my old Triumph after he stopped racing, anyway thought I throw in my 2 bob's worth.
Jim Smit be someone to talk to as well about installing behind the motor as he has his set up on his test bike with all his goodies, but I have never had any problems with mine sitting out in the cool air, set up and tuning is so simple where it is, by the way I also use the soft bolts just in case.
Everyone has their opinion on where it should be mounted, but most people have never had a JH maggie or a maggie period, for simplity and huge spark a Joe Hunt is great from running at low speed to going flat out, faster they spin the bigger the bang no matter where it's mounted and they are so fu.king reliable and a 5 minute job replacing the condenser, the tune up kits are cheap comes with new point, condenser and plug leads for about $35 from JH, but so far still running the original points in mine with well over 35k miles on it and it still starts first kick every time.
Al don't compare a Joe Hunt to the old lucas maggies as the Joe Hunts are so much simple to work on and a 5 minute job to change a condenser compared to the Lucas maggie as I have a competition Lucas maggie for my Manxman project bike, don't even come close to a JH maggie.

Ashley
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Ash,
Not sure if it’s entirely your fault or not… but I’m now considering the side mounted mag after all…!
 
SteveA said:
Steve told me that his father gave him a bollocking regarding his cases! Apparently he said: 'you made them too strong, you could be selling a lot more sets if you made them a little more fragile'
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My crank is balanced to 72%. It runs dead smooth at 7000 RPM, and my motor is difficult to keep from over-revving. I suspect I could use the motor to 8000 RPM regularly without stuffing the cases or bearings. But I don't want to find out I was wrong the hard way.
Isolastics stop the motor from vibrating the frame. They don't stop your crank from trashing your motor when it has that lower balance factor. I don't like the steel plug fitted into the hoile in the crank, but a billet crank costs a motza.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Ash,
Not sure if it’s entirely your fault or not… but I’m now considering the side mounted mag after all…!
Click to expand...
Well I can't see the problem as I say use soft bolts for the mounts and if you do go down hard that side the bolts will shear off and the Joe Hunt will slide away from the bike, the JHs are made tough and will handle a slide down the road, I been down 2 times on the JH side, not my fault car turning in front of me, the only damage to the JH was the front cover, it didn't break but sheared the plug leads right down the cover, the JH is a tough bit of kit, but the best thing is its mounted straight off the end of the cam, no added chain and sprockets and no need for the A/R unit as the JH will fire up first kick every time without retarding it, in fact once started for the day it will fire up on 1/2 swing on the kicker all the time even sitting on the seat while kicking and also be even easier with starting rollers or push start if used on a race bike.
But if you go down hard you are likely will do more damage to the bike than the Joe Hunt, my mate who sold me the JH off his race Triumph that I ran on my Triumph for 9 years after, the JH had a few battle scars from his race days but it's was still a good maggie and it never let me down with the time and miles I done with it.
I am a true believer of how well the Joe Hunts are and I have no problems with it sitting out the side, they run so much better hanging off the side in the cool air, seems to worry others but, more than me.
DSCN1269.JPG
DSCN1270.JPG


The best thing I have done is in the old points cover I have marked my timing marks inside under the maggie mount so when I need to do any work on the JH I set my motor on the original timing marks remove the JH and work on it on the bench then when done I put the maggie back on the same spot and the timing is still set without retiming it, but in over 12 years or more I haven't touched the maggie as you can see in the pics, I only pull the front cover during oil changes to check the point and put a dab of STP on the felt pad for the points cam.

Ashley
 
Ash alludes to the temperature factor of behind the cylinder mounting (BTC) of a JH.
I spoke with Jim Schmidt recently about this issue. He says he has no idea where that myth* got started, and lives and rides in an area that routinely sees 100 + F temps. with a BTC mounted JH on his own Atlas.

So, FE, not to worry about that factor in your decision where to mount a JH. I grant you that timing side mounting is a lot easier. However, once you locate the flange holes, the rest is easy using Atlas parts. The Lucas AAU will fit the JH drive shaft taper.

* Myth = BTC temperatures will degrade the supermagnets.

Slick
 
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texasSlick said:
Ash alludes to the temperature factor of behind the cylinder mounting (BTC) of a JH.
I spoke with Jim Schmidt recently about this issue. He says he has no idea where that myth* got started, and lives and rides in an area that routinely sees 100 + F temps. with a BTC mounted JH on his own Atlas.

So, FE, not to worry about that factor in your decision where to mount a JH. I grant you that timing side mounting is a lot easier. However, once you locate the flange holes, the rest is easy using Atlas parts. The Lucas AAU will fit the JH drive shaft taper.

* Myth = BTC temperatures will degrade the supermagnets.

Slick
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That’s not my issue.
It’s the ‘other stuff’ like: the amount of work, desire to keep the same cam, unsure of using the stock ATU on a track bike, unsure how much ‘error’ the extra chain might bring to timing accuracy. Stuff like that.
 
Fast Eddie said:
That’s not my issue.
It’s the ‘other stuff’ like: the amount of work, desire to keep the same cam, unsure of using the stock ATU on a track bike, unsure how much ‘error’ the extra chain might bring to timing accuracy. Stuff like that.
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Crank mounted mag maybe?
 
baz said:
Crank mounted mag maybe?
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I’m only aware of crank mounted EI’s. Unless someone came forward with a super strong recommendation it’s just not an area of experimentation I want to get into.

When I was racing I had more DNFs through playing with fancy ignitions than anything else, so I’m kinda traumatised I guess!

All that stopped when I went to Interspan, proper ‘fit n forget’ and a spark you could weld with! If Fred was still good, I’d use Interspan without hesitation, but I hear he’s rather hard work these days.

Side mounted JH mag is currently looking like the favourite…

Another plus with the side mag is that I can always use the fear of dropping it as an excuse for being slow !!
 
I'm sure Steve Maney says that his crank mounted ignition is the easy way to a couple of more horse power as the advance curve has better control (no chain in the drive to the ignition) A magneto mounted on the end of the cam or behind the cylinder still has a chain in the drive to it. Possibly a better way is getting a crank mounted ignition installed in the primary drive
 
dobba99 said:
I'm sure Steve Maney says that his crank mounted ignition is the easy way to a couple of more horse power as the advance curve has better control (no chain in the drive to the ignition) A magneto mounted on the end of the cam or behind the cylinder still has a chain in the drive to it. Possibly a better way is getting a crank mounted ignition installed in the primary drive
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He does say that, but not everyone who’s tried it agrees (inc some ‘up there’ guys) and as I understand it, it requires a lot of work to make it fit and work.
 
lcrken said:
Two ways to go. You can use an Atlas design cam, or you can machine up an adapter cup and end screw to uses a Commando cam. This picture shows them in the lower right hand corner.

View attachment 99873

Ken
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The longer Atlas cam sprocket covers the threaded portion of the cam, so you can't use the Commando cam nut. The aluminum cup goes over the oil seal end of the cam, and it holds the sprocket on. It's secured by the brazed together bolt that screws into the end of the Commando cam.

Ken
 
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lcrken said:
The longer Atlas cam sprocket covers the threaded portion, so you can't use the Commando cam nut. The aluminum cup goes over the oil seal end of the cam, and it holds the sprocket on. It's secured by the brazed together bolt that screws into the end of the Commando cam.

Ken
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Got it Ken, thanks.

Thats asking a lot of that small thread IMHO…
 
Fast Eddie said:
Got it Ken, thanks.

Thats asking a lot of that small thread IMHO…
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But it works. I ran it that way on the race bike with 920 engine with no problems. There's not a lot of force on the sprocket in the axial direction. I only quit using it when I broke the cases. I eventually ended up with the ARD electronic mag that mounted to the points housing. I liked that one a lot, and still have the last version of it on my landspeed engine. I wish they were still available.


Fitting a magneto to Maney crank cases


Ken
 
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Yes the JH off the side still has a cam chain but only the stock chain, behind the motor it would have 2 chains 2 sprockets the big auto advance set up etc etc, I run a auto timing chain adjuster on my Norton so no need to adjust chain every 10k miles have been running this set up for over 32 years, the temp behind the motor might not worry the JH but maybe the heat did have a effect on the old Lucas maggies, as for aesthetics well that hasn't worried me since converting my 850 to the Featherbed frame way back in the early 80s, another thing I never worry about losing it or dropping my bikes and keep up right will always be number one, I ride and push my Norton hard when I get up into the ranges and the 2x I been done were slow speed crashes under 30 mph.
I can ride around the suburbs at 40mph in top gear (19 tooth sprocket) without any problems and open the throttle the JH just produces that big spark and will rev right to as far as you want to push it without any problems or hesitation, the motor loves that big spark, I run a 2S cam grind, my crank is balanced at 72%, my carbs are jetted for the cam and head work that has been done and I run a open exhaust system, the JH works so well with my hot motor with it set at full advance it works so well down low right up to the full limits to how far you want to push it my motor always starts on first kick every time even when its sat for some time, the first kick for the day is the biggest kick with full swing on the KS but once started for the day it will fire up on 1/2 swing and the motor be running before the kicker has run through.
I use to leave home for work at 5:45am so the full kick to fire it up but when knock off time at 2:45pm it always fired up first time with a lazy kick and everyone knew what time it was when they heard the Norton fire up.
As I have always said both my old Triumph with the older 2 rare earth JH and the Norton with the newer 4 rare earth JH they always fired up on one kick every time even if the carbs were not fully tuned, and to be honest I love my Joe Hunt sticking out the side proud to show it off.
If you worry about dropping or coming off your bike all the time then maybe it's time to stop riding as I never think about it and in 50 years of riding on the road I have only been down 5 or 6 times and 3x wasn't my own fault and 2x pushing the Norton way past its limits, not bad at all.
As well it has never worried me what others think about the JH hanging off the side as I am proud to show it off, for such a simple set up that is so reliable and for such a big bang for your buck.

Ashley
 
As much as I like the ARD that fits in the points cavity, it did broken when I crashed. This is my race bike back when I had the earlier version of the mag. It does stick out a bit further than the later one.

In Willow PIts from Jeff B 1200.jpg


This is what it looked like new,

ARD Norton Mag 1200.jpg


and this is what it looked like afterwards.

ARD Damaged Parts 1200.jpg


But I still used one on the landspeed engine. I figured that if I crashed the bike, a damaged mag would be the least of my worries.

For anyone interested, this is how the bike looked when I bought it in 1983, with a Joe Hunt mag.

Fitting a magneto to Maney crank cases


Ken
 
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