Featherbed frame design went against all engineering princip
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
I 2nd the Commando potential for clear rear view mirrors on a smooth huge inertial sense of frame dampening vibes from power plant and exterior inputs. Only Ms Peel ever disappeared but for tire patches and G force sense. Trixies isolastics are done the same as Peel just no links or fork mods and is rather fine at all rpms to ride 9-10 hr days and not buzz nor want to get off but I can always feel there motorcycle under me. Peel's huge windscreen dampened and self centered forks and created dead air at all speeds I could light a cig with flame lighter anytime one hand free. I can get a sense of speed w/o wind on '72 Trixie and SuVee but not Peel, so when 1st put on screen and hand guards I had to look at speedo before entering turns or would have to lean over so far my head was at risk of wide fliers in the blinds. I made definite mental speed limit marks for many turns on my commutes. Not sense of lost control as at least 2 more ways around faster but not survivalist way to routinely take public blinds taking up a whole lane and risking Gravel/sand so near the outer paint line.
Another weird-wonderful thing about Peel was the sonics range of tires. Almost all tire sounds on other cycles I get are hi pitched chirps to squeal kind while Peel could mostly deliver a scrubbing to howling-growl before the chirp squeal sounds. These are the sounds to me of changing energy phases of handling. These vibes were transmitted distinctly into pegs, sacrum pressed hard into seat and hand grips lightly held so not to interfere with Peel innate sense heading into the barn door. I would slap Peels bars hands off in pretty fast leans and she'd self correct like a sail boat boom in one half swing back to neutral road following for the lean and radius and road slope and wind angle so nil pilot effort to keep to intended line, or could change mind mid turns and take a severely new one, such as dodging road crap or wayward corner cripples. Makes me wonder if the good Dr. didn't have radius control rods in mind but bean counters gave management perks instead. I do wish everyone could feel like Peel did me before ya don't care anymore. Can't wait for a real rider to have they way with er.
I 2nd the Commando potential for clear rear view mirrors on a smooth huge inertial sense of frame dampening vibes from power plant and exterior inputs. Only Ms Peel ever disappeared but for tire patches and G force sense. Trixies isolastics are done the same as Peel just no links or fork mods and is rather fine at all rpms to ride 9-10 hr days and not buzz nor want to get off but I can always feel there motorcycle under me. Peel's huge windscreen dampened and self centered forks and created dead air at all speeds I could light a cig with flame lighter anytime one hand free. I can get a sense of speed w/o wind on '72 Trixie and SuVee but not Peel, so when 1st put on screen and hand guards I had to look at speedo before entering turns or would have to lean over so far my head was at risk of wide fliers in the blinds. I made definite mental speed limit marks for many turns on my commutes. Not sense of lost control as at least 2 more ways around faster but not survivalist way to routinely take public blinds taking up a whole lane and risking Gravel/sand so near the outer paint line.
Another weird-wonderful thing about Peel was the sonics range of tires. Almost all tire sounds on other cycles I get are hi pitched chirps to squeal kind while Peel could mostly deliver a scrubbing to howling-growl before the chirp squeal sounds. These are the sounds to me of changing energy phases of handling. These vibes were transmitted distinctly into pegs, sacrum pressed hard into seat and hand grips lightly held so not to interfere with Peel innate sense heading into the barn door. I would slap Peels bars hands off in pretty fast leans and she'd self correct like a sail boat boom in one half swing back to neutral road following for the lean and radius and road slope and wind angle so nil pilot effort to keep to intended line, or could change mind mid turns and take a severely new one, such as dodging road crap or wayward corner cripples. Makes me wonder if the good Dr. didn't have radius control rods in mind but bean counters gave management perks instead. I do wish everyone could feel like Peel did me before ya don't care anymore. Can't wait for a real rider to have they way with er.
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
Steve , did Pro Stanley Unwin have a long lasting effect on you, like me? Deep Joy, dido effectus :lol:
Steve , did Pro Stanley Unwin have a long lasting effect on you, like me? Deep Joy, dido effectus :lol:
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
Sorry Tex, - Order is when the motorcycle has spread itself evenly throughout the universe as dust. Disorder is when every thing has come together and the bike is standing there all bright and shiny new. Energy is used to coalesce the dust and bring it together to make the bike. The difference between the British and American systems in thermodynamics is a real bugbear if you are not aware of it. One of my mates was studying at university and stole a thermodynamics text book. When he discovered it was the American version he threw it out of a first floor window in disgust, saying he'd stolen it for nothing. The American system of thermodynamics has a minus sign which changes the whole sense of the theory.
texasSlick said:
Sorry Tex, - Order is when the motorcycle has spread itself evenly throughout the universe as dust. Disorder is when every thing has come together and the bike is standing there all bright and shiny new. Energy is used to coalesce the dust and bring it together to make the bike. The difference between the British and American systems in thermodynamics is a real bugbear if you are not aware of it. One of my mates was studying at university and stole a thermodynamics text book. When he discovered it was the American version he threw it out of a first floor window in disgust, saying he'd stolen it for nothing. The American system of thermodynamics has a minus sign which changes the whole sense of the theory.
texasSlick
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
Alan:
I said I would not comment further on this thread, but your polite and erudite reply deserves a response.
I did not know you "down unders" did thermo upside down. But it stands to reason... you drive on the wrong side of the road
, the bathtub vortex goes down the drain backwards , Santa Clause comes in the summer , so why not run your universe backwards?
Your tone says I have your permission to continue living in my "backwards" (that depends on point of view) universe. That was point 2). Would you care to address point 1)? You have to do it just to keep this discussion on frames.
I can rationalize your system. Just one point of curiosity....
How do you guys handle Boltzmann's equation... you know, the one he was so proud of, he put it on his tombstone? Old Ludwig used our system .... it just doesn't work for yours. A simple minus sign does not cut it.
s = - ln (omega) .....that says the entropy of the universe decreases
s = ln (-omega) ..... ln of a negative number doesn't work for me
IMO, Boltzmann was the greatest mind to ever walk this planet. I sure am not smart enough to re-work his equation.
Slick
Alan:
I said I would not comment further on this thread, but your polite and erudite reply deserves a response.
I did not know you "down unders" did thermo upside down. But it stands to reason... you drive on the wrong side of the road
, the bathtub vortex goes down the drain backwards , Santa Clause comes in the summer , so why not run your universe backwards?Your tone says I have your permission to continue living in my "backwards" (that depends on point of view) universe. That was point 2). Would you care to address point 1)? You have to do it just to keep this discussion on frames.
I can rationalize your system. Just one point of curiosity....
How do you guys handle Boltzmann's equation... you know, the one he was so proud of, he put it on his tombstone? Old Ludwig used our system .... it just doesn't work for yours. A simple minus sign does not cut it.
s = - ln (omega) .....that says the entropy of the universe decreases
s = ln (-omega) ..... ln of a negative number doesn't work for me
IMO, Boltzmann was the greatest mind to ever walk this planet. I sure am not smart enough to re-work his equation.
Slick
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
We use the British system of thermodynamics in Australia. I believe the natural direction is from disorder towards order, and that entropy is the amount of disorder in the universe. I.e if you heat the end of an iron bar the natural direction is towards evenly distributed heat throughout the bar. In other words if you manufacture a motorcycle, you use energy to create disorder. From memory, I think you American definition is that entropy is the amount of order in the universe. It seems to be based on the premise that God created order ?
I cannot remember the Boltzman equation, I think it was about black body radiation and it is something that stuffs me in the head. So you are probably correct, there may be a conflict there between the two theory systems.
We use the British system of thermodynamics in Australia. I believe the natural direction is from disorder towards order, and that entropy is the amount of disorder in the universe. I.e if you heat the end of an iron bar the natural direction is towards evenly distributed heat throughout the bar. In other words if you manufacture a motorcycle, you use energy to create disorder. From memory, I think you American definition is that entropy is the amount of order in the universe. It seems to be based on the premise that God created order ?
I cannot remember the Boltzman equation, I think it was about black body radiation and it is something that stuffs me in the head. So you are probably correct, there may be a conflict there between the two theory systems.
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
it would be interesting to discuss what honda and norton offered in 75, who moved forward and why,
the bikes offered and their intended purposes might as well have been night & day
one prob for sure was size, or at least offering a bigger sized bike for the road,
racing goals wasn't what folks were mainly interested in for road use,
folks wanted more power even if it meant more weight, bigger, and lousy handling
big bike even worked with lower power engines like harley
it would be interesting to discuss what honda and norton offered in 75, who moved forward and why,
the bikes offered and their intended purposes might as well have been night & day
one prob for sure was size, or at least offering a bigger sized bike for the road,
racing goals wasn't what folks were mainly interested in for road use,
folks wanted more power even if it meant more weight, bigger, and lousy handling
big bike even worked with lower power engines like harley
Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
I am going to withdraw my earlier comment about Allan being correct on this.
He's starting just making his own versions....
The 2nd law of thermo, in simplified Wiki speak.
For a sentence or 2, anyway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law ... modynamics
Note that the 2nd law of thermo, and entropy in the universe are not entirely the same subject - at all.
Off to the pub ?
acotrel said:
I am going to withdraw my earlier comment about Allan being correct on this.
He's starting just making his own versions....
The 2nd law of thermo, in simplified Wiki speak.
For a sentence or 2, anyway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law ... modynamics
Note that the 2nd law of thermo, and entropy in the universe are not entirely the same subject - at all.
Off to the pub ?
Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
Allan would probably like this one ?
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/ ... 3/$_57.JPG
For sale in his neck of the woods ?
Allan would probably like this one ?
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/ ... 3/$_57.JPG
For sale in his neck of the woods ?
ashman
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
In 1974 Honda 750/4s didn't have more power, didn't handle and was so top heavy, I know i made the right choose when I brought my Norton new and my Norton never dropped a single drop of oil and has always been oil tight, all my mates got into the Hondas and I rode circles around them, they always put shit on me but who is laughting now as I still own my Norton and the same mates have full respect for my bike now, its not the same as when I first got it but its still my Norton.
For those who want to argue please take it to the PUP as LAB has said, this has been a intresting subject don't spoil it by going off track, its about frames, I may not be the smartest person here, but I do know how to build good motorcycles for myself and others.
Ashley
In 1974 Honda 750/4s didn't have more power, didn't handle and was so top heavy, I know i made the right choose when I brought my Norton new and my Norton never dropped a single drop of oil and has always been oil tight, all my mates got into the Hondas and I rode circles around them, they always put shit on me but who is laughting now as I still own my Norton and the same mates have full respect for my bike now, its not the same as when I first got it but its still my Norton.
For those who want to argue please take it to the PUP as LAB has said, this has been a intresting subject don't spoil it by going off track, its about frames, I may not be the smartest person here, but I do know how to build good motorcycles for myself and others.
Ashley
Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
That is a bold claim.
PUP though ? Its a nonsense if you post here, and then send folks away... !?
A relative bought a 750/4 - after having a (hard used) Commando - and he loved it.
Since he had to travel miles to even find any twisties, any steering deficiencies were not immediately obvious.
Fitting a 2nd front disk improved the braking somewhat - just a bolt-on exercise - fixed the only real drawback to a fairly capable bike ?
Tough motor, if it survived several teenage owners....
ashman said:
That is a bold claim.
PUP though ? Its a nonsense if you post here, and then send folks away... !?
A relative bought a 750/4 - after having a (hard used) Commando - and he loved it.
Since he had to travel miles to even find any twisties, any steering deficiencies were not immediately obvious.
Fitting a 2nd front disk improved the braking somewhat - just a bolt-on exercise - fixed the only real drawback to a fairly capable bike ?
Tough motor, if it survived several teenage owners....
ashman
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
Rohan I have owned Honda dirt bike from the age of 15 years old and when 17 I took both Honda 4 and the Norton for test rides before going the Norton way, but before that my mate gave me his Norton 750 Commando Featherbed for the day while he was riding my Honda dirt bike, I didn't like the Honda 750/4 at all, to top heavy, Yes it was smooth with the 4 cylinders, but I liked the grunt of the twin, the lightness and the way it handled, I still own and ride Honda dirt bikes to this day, in my young days of riding my 850 I never had a Honda/4 outrun me, but one thing I have noticed these days I see more Commandos on the road than Honda/4, yes Hondas got better over time, Nortons couldn't compete with mass produced Japanies bike, plus with the troubles Norton was going through they just couldn't servive, but I don't care if you don't agree with me, we all have our own opinions which is all good, I choose what i wanted at the time and went the way I did over time and I am glad that I did go the way I did, if my mate never gave me his Norton for the day I would probly have gone the Honda way, thanks Don, he also got me into Featherbeds.
Ashley
Rohan I have owned Honda dirt bike from the age of 15 years old and when 17 I took both Honda 4 and the Norton for test rides before going the Norton way, but before that my mate gave me his Norton 750 Commando Featherbed for the day while he was riding my Honda dirt bike, I didn't like the Honda 750/4 at all, to top heavy, Yes it was smooth with the 4 cylinders, but I liked the grunt of the twin, the lightness and the way it handled, I still own and ride Honda dirt bikes to this day, in my young days of riding my 850 I never had a Honda/4 outrun me, but one thing I have noticed these days I see more Commandos on the road than Honda/4, yes Hondas got better over time, Nortons couldn't compete with mass produced Japanies bike, plus with the troubles Norton was going through they just couldn't servive, but I don't care if you don't agree with me, we all have our own opinions which is all good, I choose what i wanted at the time and went the way I did over time and I am glad that I did go the way I did, if my mate never gave me his Norton for the day I would probly have gone the Honda way, thanks Don, he also got me into Featherbeds.
Ashley
Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
Had a 750/4 back in the day,very reliable, not much torque, lots of tingly vibration at highway speeds, handling....not on par with either a Commando or any old Featherbed Dominator.
Glen
Had a 750/4 back in the day,very reliable, not much torque, lots of tingly vibration at highway speeds, handling....not on par with either a Commando or any old Featherbed Dominator.
Glen
Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
Since we are now talking about Commandos and 750/4s.
Norton Villiers had the first 750/4 in the UK, possibly in Europe. They got one of the agents in the US to buy it and ship it to the UK. Obviously the idea was to do a comparison, based on the question "what are we up against?"
The end result was that in the opinion of the (very experienced Development Dept riders, and the Design team) the Commando was faster, handled and steered better, was more economical, accelerated better and was smoother once on the move. Almost the ONLY area that the Honda was considered to be better was braking in the dry, not in the wet, the Honda had a disc brake the Norton a TLS drum.
As a result the design of a front disc for the Norton was given a high priority.
The other area was reliability and the need for routine maintenance, which were not considered as important as the "wassit like mister" questions.
cheers
wakeup
Since we are now talking about Commandos and 750/4s.
Norton Villiers had the first 750/4 in the UK, possibly in Europe. They got one of the agents in the US to buy it and ship it to the UK. Obviously the idea was to do a comparison, based on the question "what are we up against?"
The end result was that in the opinion of the (very experienced Development Dept riders, and the Design team) the Commando was faster, handled and steered better, was more economical, accelerated better and was smoother once on the move. Almost the ONLY area that the Honda was considered to be better was braking in the dry, not in the wet, the Honda had a disc brake the Norton a TLS drum.
As a result the design of a front disc for the Norton was given a high priority.
The other area was reliability and the need for routine maintenance, which were not considered as important as the "wassit like mister" questions.
cheers
wakeup
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
Ya know as far as I can tell the whole universe of motorcyclers is like one big party Pub with laughing and playing and now and then folks with a chip on their shoulder spoiling the mood. Besides the bends the length of the tubes act as bow springs and torsion twist bars. I think one of the rebounding down falls of Commando frames is the front tabs can bend their individual down tube from the leverage of rear tire patch pivoting on rear iso to slap the front tabes silly. Oh its only a silly little mm or so but boy howdy a silly mm here and there in cycles fast enough can suddenly return parts of bike and pilot back to elemental random dispersal. A cross brace to help prevent down tube twisting if put closer to than farther from the tabs. If ya consider that Cdo engine can tip side/side vertically and horizontal there's can be significant leverage against the tabs that is separate from just pure road loads applied squarely. A few brainiacs may enjoy the below non Commando or Featherlastic random drift off subject. Man oh man don't name your children Ludwig.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=boltzmann+brain
Ya know as far as I can tell the whole universe of motorcyclers is like one big party Pub with laughing and playing and now and then folks with a chip on their shoulder spoiling the mood. Besides the bends the length of the tubes act as bow springs and torsion twist bars. I think one of the rebounding down falls of Commando frames is the front tabs can bend their individual down tube from the leverage of rear tire patch pivoting on rear iso to slap the front tabes silly. Oh its only a silly little mm or so but boy howdy a silly mm here and there in cycles fast enough can suddenly return parts of bike and pilot back to elemental random dispersal. A cross brace to help prevent down tube twisting if put closer to than farther from the tabs. If ya consider that Cdo engine can tip side/side vertically and horizontal there's can be significant leverage against the tabs that is separate from just pure road loads applied squarely. A few brainiacs may enjoy the below non Commando or Featherlastic random drift off subject. Man oh man don't name your children Ludwig.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=boltzmann+brain
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Re: Featherbed frame design went against all engineering pri
come on Tex and Acotel. shake and agree to disagree. Don't know WTF you are going on about.
WTF was that thing in the Norton frame with the Roo on the side.
Why did I buy a Commando instead of the better finished 750/4. My little ol man was asked to tune an Atlas in about 1966. [ hadn't worked on m/cycles since WWII ] He had to get me to start it for him. He went for a ride and came back looking rather pale as the thing had scared the shit out of him. He wound it up the Hatepe hill and couldn't slow down. I fell in love with Nortons then.
Dereck
hope the weather is nice this Saturday as I hope to ride the 850 down to Hampton Downes. [ want to see 454 do its thing ]
come on Tex and Acotel. shake and agree to disagree. Don't know WTF you are going on about.
WTF was that thing in the Norton frame with the Roo on the side.
Why did I buy a Commando instead of the better finished 750/4. My little ol man was asked to tune an Atlas in about 1966. [ hadn't worked on m/cycles since WWII ] He had to get me to start it for him. He went for a ride and came back looking rather pale as the thing had scared the shit out of him. He wound it up the Hatepe hill and couldn't slow down. I fell in love with Nortons then.
Dereck
hope the weather is nice this Saturday as I hope to ride the 850 down to Hampton Downes. [ want to see 454 do its thing ]
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