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Evolution of the Commando?
- Thread starter worntorn
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L.A.B. said:
Completely different - as in where ?
Photographed from a different angle to look different, perhaps ??!!
Still a 3 bearing 270 degree pressed up crank ?
Garner version may have gained a few big holes there.
Increase oil frothing, and look different...
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Well unless Dreer came to the UK and sourced Jenvey throttle bodies, Omex engine management system suitably modified and enlarged tank to take the fuel pump and associated loom to connect it all I would think its pretty safe to say it didn't include a working fuel injection system.Rohan said:
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Be interesting to hear what Kenny Dreer has to say on this then. ?
Fuel pumps don't have to be submerged. Could just as well be all a later development of the same thing . And conjecture at this stage, unless/untill someone in the know tells all...
The fact that Fuel Injection was quoted/mentioned as a development before Mr Garner even appeared on the horizon...
Fuel pumps don't have to be submerged. Could just as well be all a later development of the same thing . And conjecture at this stage, unless/untill someone in the know tells all...
The fact that Fuel Injection was quoted/mentioned as a development before Mr Garner even appeared on the horizon...
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Rohan said:
Well they are obviously not the same then...are they? :roll:
And I'd bet if you had one of each to compare and measure then they would differ in many respects other than just the holes (the machining of the mainshaft tapered area looks to be different but I expect you can't/wont see that or consider it significant?
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The machining looks different, or the taper looks different. ?
2 different machinists could produce work that varied so minor ?!!
Let alone if the taper engle was changed for some reason (different supplier ?).
(One crank has a bearing fittted, and t'other doesn't, so that looks different).
I'd call that trivial to cranks that are essentially the same.
If they were converted to metric specs the differences could be measureable, of course...
2 different machinists could produce work that varied so minor ?!!
Let alone if the taper engle was changed for some reason (different supplier ?).
(One crank has a bearing fittted, and t'other doesn't, so that looks different).
I'd call that trivial to cranks that are essentially the same.
If they were converted to metric specs the differences could be measureable, of course...
worntorn
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From this discussion, It is becoming quite clear that the 961 has some pretty strong roots in the original Commando, it isnt just some new generic motorcycle with a Norton sticker.
[
Kenny Dreer, who knows all of the strengths and weaknesses of the old bikes better than almost anyone, made some fabulous Commando 880 specials from the originals. He bumped rwhp almost 50% from mid forties to mid sixties along the way, and came up with styling that is extremely attractive.
He wanted to make a more robust and more powerful all new production version of the bike. He got close, but not quite there. Garner picked up the baton, many detail and engineering changes had to be made for the production bikes, and that is where we are at today. I would say that deleting carbs in favour of fuel injection is an excellent move, and clearly Dreer would have done the same if the money hadnt run out.
Glen
[
Kenny Dreer, who knows all of the strengths and weaknesses of the old bikes better than almost anyone, made some fabulous Commando 880 specials from the originals. He bumped rwhp almost 50% from mid forties to mid sixties along the way, and came up with styling that is extremely attractive.
He wanted to make a more robust and more powerful all new production version of the bike. He got close, but not quite there. Garner picked up the baton, many detail and engineering changes had to be made for the production bikes, and that is where we are at today. I would say that deleting carbs in favour of fuel injection is an excellent move, and clearly Dreer would have done the same if the money hadnt run out.
Glen
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Rohan said:
Not really, except perhaps as a historical reference?
Rohan said:
So you concede that it could be a later development and thus would have been done by others ?
Rohan said:
Precisely!
Rohan said:
Different machinists? These parts are almost certainly made using CNC machine tooling.
I see little point discussing it further as it cannot be conclusively proven if the two cranks would be considered interchangeable or not without having both items to compare/measure.
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Err this is the whole point, that the bike was significantly developed from the original Dreer bike and even if their was a American-made Powerheart electronic CDI and associated fuel injection gubbins thrown in a box and handed over to SG it didn't make it onto the production bike.Rohan said:
Well it had to be didn't it, a non fuel injected bike is not going to meet emmsion regs is it ? and just because he mentions it that means he had a fully working system ? shame he didn't put it on the bike then, would have saved SG and his team a lot of work.Rohan said:
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Yes Mark far better to ride them than talk about them it's just a bit frustrating when you have seen the bikes side by side and compared the OBVIOUS differences between them (and there are many) and met the dedicated team that have built and developed them and yet people who have never seen either of them let alone sat their arse on or ridden one know them better than anyone else.Mark said:
Guess thats the internet, it's made a world of exspurts. :wink:
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Are you telling us that Kenny Dreer and team didn't largely design the 961cc Commando ?
Someone said the internals were not Mr Dreers work.
Mr Garners 961 is a whole new design of bike. ??
This is the whole crux of the recent discussion ere ???
Doesn't take any eggspurts to see some serious similarities.....
Someone said the internals were not Mr Dreers work.
Mr Garners 961 is a whole new design of bike. ??
This is the whole crux of the recent discussion ere ???
Doesn't take any eggspurts to see some serious similarities.....
worntorn
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Mark said:
Mark, I put some miles on today as well, not on the Norton tho, on the Vincent Special.
There are some big gaps in my historical knowledge of the Norton brand, but I do think the history of the bikes is important to most owners, especially for owners/riders of vintage stuff. If the history of the old bike you are riding means nothing, why put up with all the downsides of an old bike?
Without the history it just becomes a generic machine for getting from A to B, anyone will do. Might as well have a new one of some sort, the mass produced brands are low in cost, high in power and reliability. Without history an old Norton makes no sense at all and a new Norton isnt logical either.
Glen
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Personally , I wish he'd stuck to fireworks .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_t4yFHZ ... re=related Check out top left 0:26 / 0/28 ; looks like weve got visitors . :lol:
Told there were burglars who used lightet rolled newspapers for lightaround abouts then . Theyve NEVER been seen again . :lol: 8) This made international news at the time . Nearly Krakatoa . :?
Wouldnt have sneezed at one of these if theyed done a Ducati .Back Then . ( Works replicar F-750 JPN 1975 ) Darn Fuels .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_t4yFHZ ... re=related Check out top left 0:26 / 0/28 ; looks like weve got visitors . :lol:
Told there were burglars who used lightet rolled newspapers for lightaround abouts then . Theyve NEVER been seen again . :lol: 8) This made international news at the time . Nearly Krakatoa . :?
Wouldnt have sneezed at one of these if theyed done a Ducati .Back Then . ( Works replicar F-750 JPN 1975 ) Darn Fuels .
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SG.'s original idea's?
thats a laugh! the only imput the man had was how to con people...now he's a master of that :!:
thats a laugh! the only imput the man had was how to con people...now he's a master of that :!:
Snorton74 said: