Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium

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So I got to thinking why not mix some VP race fuel with the premium pump gas. Then I looked at the price of VP race fuel. Holy smoke that is one heck of a penalty. Last time I bought VP fuel it was $5.45 a gallon. $25 a gallon seems a little high.

Thanks Glen

I will forget most of this discussion sometime over the next 5 minutes. ;)

I put octane booster in my premium unleaded 10% ethanol in a 5 gallon fuel jug in the garage. I carry a bottle of octane booster if I know I'll be on a longer ride. Only reason I do it is to possibly prevent detonation. Only time it makes much difference is closer to WOT. Otherwise I can hardly tell any difference. Plus I still can't tell if my motor detonates. Way too many other noises coming out of it to distinguish detonation. Well either that or it is detonating all the time. Still runs though.

I think my motor may have run cooler on the non-ethanol fuel I tried, but I don't go out of my way to purchase it. Also couldn't tell any difference at all running it, but my tune was not dialed in at the time. I'll have to try it again some day for grins.
 
Schwany said:
So I got to thinking why not mix some VP race fuel with the premium pump gas. Then I looked at the price of VP race fuel. Holy smoke that is one heck of a penalty. Last time I bought VP fuel it was $5.45 a gallon. $25 a gallon seems a little high.

Thanks Glen

I will forget most of this discussion sometime over the next 5 minutes. ;)

I put octane booster in my premium unleaded 10% ethanol in a 5 gallon fuel jug in the garage. I carry a bottle of octane booster if I know I'll be on a longer ride. Only reason I do it is to possibly prevent detonation. Only time it makes much difference is closer to WOT. Otherwise I can hardly tell any difference. Plus I still can't tell if my motor detonates. Way too many other noises coming out of it to distinguish detonation. Well either that or it is detonating all the time. Still runs though.

I think my motor may have run cooler on the non-ethanol fuel I tried, but I don't go out of my way to purchase it. Also couldn't tell any difference at all running it, but my tune was not dialed in at the time. I'll have to try it again some day for grins.
Click to expand...
Unless the engine is tuned to REQUIRE higher octane, significantly more octane than required can, and usually does, decrease power.
 
Dan1950 said:
Unless the engine is tuned to REQUIRE higher octane, significantly more octane than required can, and usually does, decrease power.
Click to expand...

Probably so. I know what I'm doing regardless of how it sounds. I'd need a pocket dyno to tell if there was a decrease in power using the booster junk. My motor does not run out of legs with or without the booster. It makes plenty of power and gets excellent fuel mileage. I don't use too much octane booster. Just a pinch.

My experience with race fuel is it makes a positive difference on any tune, if the tune was good to begin with using premium pump gas.

You get that no power above 5000 RPM situation squared away on your 850 yet?
 
Last edited:
Dan1950 said:
Note that these are stoichiometric A/F ratios. One should never tune to the absolute value. Always leave at least 1 point for safety factor to prevent detonation under varying conditions.
Fuel​
Stoichiometric AFR​
Pure Gasoline
14.7:1​
10% Ethanol Gas
14.04:1​
15% Ethanol Gas
13.79:1​
E85
9.75:1​
Pure Ethanol
9:1​
Diesel
14.6:1*​
Click to expand...
That’s what I wanted to know! Thank you.
 
worntorn, if you want to get an idea of the actual ethanol content in the fuel you used for your test, you could go for the method described by Norman Lorton in the NOC Roadholder below.
I did it back in 2013 for some fuels here in Holland, it's easy.

Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium


Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium


Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium


Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium
 
Schwany said:
Probably so. I know what I'm doing regardless of how it sounds. I'd need a pocket dyno to tell if there was a decrease in power using the booster junk. My motor does not run out of legs with or without the booster. It makes plenty of power and gets excellent fuel mileage. I don't use too much octane booster. Just a pinch.

My experience with race fuel is it makes a positive difference on any tune, if the tune was good to begin with using premium pump gas.

You get that no power above 5000 RPM situation squared away on your 850 yet?
Click to expand...
Right now I'm getting settled in at my new home. As soon as I get a mortgage squared away to make renovations and other things I will purchase a motorcycle lift from Harbor Freight and start work on Trixie. I have to replace the layshaft bearing and sort out the circlip dislodging on the rear brake drum.

I think the problem is the A/F ratio being too fat. Haven't done a plug reading yet, but the insides of the muffler exits are black. IME, usually a well tuned engine will have a light tan coating on the exhaust similar to what a proper plug reading might show. The left pipe is turning slightly blue at the bend compared to the straw color on the right. Curiously, the plug on the left is black while the plug on the right is a nice tan color. These readings are not really valid as I was riding the bike in town when it locked up. The engine starts and idles very nicely. I'm wondering if the metering rod on the left is a notch higher in the Amal. Perhaps trying to compensate for a smaller main jet on that side?
 
Dan1950 said:
Right now I'm getting settled in at my new home. As soon as I get a mortgage squared away to make renovations and other things I will purchase a motorcycle lift from Harbor Freight and start work on Trixie. I have to replace the layshaft bearing and sort out the circlip dislodging on the rear brake drum.

I think the problem is the A/F ratio being too fat. Haven't done a plug reading yet, but the insides of the muffler exits are black. IME, usually a well tuned engine will have a light tan coating on the exhaust similar to what a proper plug reading might show. The left pipe is turning slightly blue at the bend compared to the straw color on the right. Curiously, the plug on the left is black while the plug on the right is a nice tan color. These readings are not really valid as I was riding the bike in town when it locked up. The engine starts and idles very nicely. I'm wondering if the metering rod on the left is a notch higher in the Amal. Perhaps trying to compensate for a smaller main jet on that side?
Click to expand...
Darn I forgot about that layshaft. That does slow down toy time progress. Besides getting your house situation in order is always a priority. You'll get the whole package tune figured out eventually.

I know this is frowned upon in the den of hornets, but there are much better carburetors than Amals if you like to tune, and have carburetion that stays tuned. Did I say that? Oh my.
 
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slimslowslider said:
worntorn, if you want to get an idea of the actual ethanol content in the fuel you used for your test, you could go for the method described by Norman Lorton in the NOC Roadholder below.
I did it back in 2013 for some fuels here in Holland, it's easy.

Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium


Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium


Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium
Click to expand...

slimslowslider said:
Ethanol free Premium vs 10% Ethanol Premium
Click to expand...
I made a test earlier today using a Stens kit and it showed 7% ethanol.
The Stens kit method is the same as the method above.
The other thing I'll do shortly is to test the ethanol free fuel to see if it is truly ethanol free. I suspect it is as that is how the pump is labelled.
There is another trusted supplier of premium fuel nearby. Their highest Octane fuel is 91, which is plenty for this 850. They claim that their 91 is ethanol free, although the pump is labelled " May contain up to 10% ethanol"
The other problem is that it is a blender pump, so the first bit of fuel is whatever the last person filled with. I get around that when filling Jerry cans by bringing along an extra Jerry can for the first bit of fuel, or by squirting that first bit into the car's tank.
If their 91 tests Ethanol free and the bike rips up Dyno Hill like it does on the Chevron, ( or faster) then I could use this fuel instead. It's considerably cheaper and I use quite a bit of Ethanol free with all the various small gas engines here.




Glen
 
Last edited:
Schwany said:
Probably so. I know what I'm doing regardless of how it sounds. I'd need a pocket dyno to tell if there was a decrease in power using the booster junk. My motor does not run out of legs with or without the booster. It makes plenty of power and gets excellent fuel mileage. I don't use too much octane booster. Just a pinch.

My experience with race fuel is it makes a positive difference on any tune, if the tune was good to begin with using premium pump gas.

You get that no power above 5000 RPM situation squared away on your 850 yet?
Click to expand...
www.motortrend.com

Combustion Basics: How Does Fuel Make a Difference?

We expose the truth behind whether or not the quality of fuel you use can make a difference in how your car performs.
www.motortrend.com www.motortrend.com
 
We have another nice day here so I was able to do a few runs.
First try was with 270mjets and still using the 7%ethanol fuel. It gained 1 kmh at hilltop so it seemed things were going the right way.
With 280s in it dropped back to 6 kmh below my standard speed, or 1 kmh slower than with 260s and ethanol.
So 270s are as optimized as I can get things for that fuel, still a big loss from 260s and ethanol free.

Next I went down to the nearby Coop gas station with five 20 litre Jerry cans.
I had read on a forum that Coop does not put any ethanol in their fuel, they just put the " Up to 10% ethanol" label on the pumps to satisfy Government regs and keep the Greenies at bay.
The fellow who provided that info claimed to be a fuel truck driver for Coop and " in the know"
If their gas was truly Ethanol free then I could stop buying that Super high priced Chevron Supreme.
I called their Petroleum Department about this a month ago. The lady in charge said " No, all of our blends have ethanol except the 91 octane (premium) It is pure gasoline"
I purchased $20 worth of each type and tested for ethanol.
The lady was correct, the truck driver was not
All contain 5% except the 91, which has zero.
So the 91 is the only one I will purchase for small engines and motorcycles.
How did it do on dyno hill?
Bloody amazing, 3 kmh higher than my best ever result on Chevron. My best ever on Chevron is 114 kmh with the crossover plugged.
Nine times out of ten it runs at 113.
The first run with the Coop gas was at 117 as were the next 2 runs.
Then I had to go for a romp with my new hot gasoline.
It definitely doesn't need another cam, lots of go above 5 k.

Glen
 
worntorn said:
We have another nice day here so I was able to do a few runs.
First try was with 270mjets and still using the 7%ethanol fuel. It gained 1 kmh at hilltop so it seemed things were going the right way.
With 280s in it dropped back to 6 kmh below my standard speed, or 1 kmh slower than with 260s and ethanol.
So 270s are as optimized as I can get things for that fuel, still a big loss from 260s and ethanol free.

Next I went down to the nearby Coop gas station with five 20 litre Jerry cans.
I had read on a forum that Coop does not put any ethanol in their fuel, they just put the " Up to 10% ethanol" label on the pumps to satisfy Government regs and keep the Greenies at bay.
The fellow who provided that info claimed to be a fuel truck driver for Coop and " in the know"
If their gas was truly Ethanol free then I could stop buying that Super high priced Chevron Supreme.
I called their Petroleum Department about this a month ago. The lady in charge said " No, all of our blends have ethanol except the 91 octane (premium) It is pure gasoline"
I purchased $20 worth of each type and tested for ethanol.
The lady was correct, the truck driver was not
All contain 5% except the 91, which has zero.
So the 91 is the only one I will purchase for small engines and motorcycles.
How did it do on dyno hill?
Bloody amazing, 3 kmh higher than my best ever result on Chevron. My best ever on Chevron is 114 kmh with the crossover plugged.
Nine times out of ten it runs at 113.
The first run with the Coop gas was at 117 as were the next 2 runs.
Then I had to go for a romp with my new hot gasoline.
It definitely doesn't need another cam, lots of go above 5 k.

Glen
Click to expand...
Glen, have I kept up correctly? It sounds like the difference between the best with erhonal vs the best with the premium is 9kmh on your test.

Is that right?

Cos that’s huge !
 
Dan1950 said:
Right now I'm getting settled in at my new home. As soon as I get a mortgage squared away to make renovations and other things I will purchase a motorcycle lift from Harbor Freight and start work on Trixie. I have to replace the layshaft bearing and sort out the circlip dislodging on the rear brake drum.

I think the problem is the A/F ratio being too fat. Haven't done a plug reading yet, but the insides of the muffler exits are black. IME, usually a well tuned engine will have a light tan coating on the exhaust similar to what a proper plug reading might show. The left pipe is turning slightly blue at the bend compared to the straw color on the right. Curiously, the plug on the left is black while the plug on the right is a nice tan color. These readings are not really valid as I was riding the bike in town when it locked up. The engine starts and idles very nicely. I'm wondering if the metering rod on the left is a notch higher in the Amal. Perhaps trying to compensate for a smaller main jet on that side?
Click to expand...
Unleaded fuel does not color plugs/exhaust like the leaded fuel of yesteryear.
 
Almost Nigel.
113 with my old brand hi octane pure gas.
109 with the 7% ethanol, mainjets optimized ( 270)
117 with the new tryout, Coop brand 91 octane pure gas.

So that leaves 8kmh between the ethanol and the new pure stuff.
To put it into perspective , 100lbs of free weight added to the bike in saddle bags reduced hilltop speed by just 5 kmh.

Glen
 
I appreciate Glen's testing. Some interesting results.

I don't tend to ride my Commando flat out. So, I generally have 10% or more throttle twist available. I'm looking to understand what impact, if any, the switch the UK has just made to E10, will have on reliability and what I might need to do, to avoid any pitfalls. I expect it will soon be near impossible to find anything other than E5 and E10, and E5 may soon become more scarce.

My own experience so far is E10 appeared to start going off after only 10 days, affecting the running of the bike. I have read about concerns over accelerating corrosion in alloys and tanks and damage to rubber and some plastics and that fuel additives are snake oil. Until I know better, I'll change what I currently do: I won't fill up after a ride, I'll wait until I go out. Rather than fill it to the brim, I'll try to judge how much I'll need, so I'm not left with too much in the tank. I'll turn the fuel tap off when I turn into the top of my lane and run the carb dry on my drive, before I put the bike away. If I don't plan to ride the Commando for a few weeks, I'll drain the tank. At least, until I know any better. What a pain.
 
worntorn said:
We have another nice day here so I was able to do a few runs.
First try was with 270mjets and still using the 7%ethanol fuel. It gained 1 kmh at hilltop so it seemed things were going the right way.
With 280s in it dropped back to 6 kmh below my standard speed, or 1 kmh slower than with 260s and ethanol.
So 270s are as optimized as I can get things for that fuel, still a big loss from 260s and ethanol free.

Next I went down to the nearby Coop gas station with five 20 litre Jerry cans.
I had read on a forum that Coop does not put any ethanol in their fuel, they just put the " Up to 10% ethanol" label on the pumps to satisfy Government regs and keep the Greenies at bay.
The fellow who provided that info claimed to be a fuel truck driver for Coop and " in the know"
If their gas was truly Ethanol free then I could stop buying that Super high priced Chevron Supreme.
I called their Petroleum Department about this a month ago. The lady in charge said " No, all of our blends have ethanol except the 91 octane (premium) It is pure gasoline"
I purchased $20 worth of each type and tested for ethanol.
The lady was correct, the truck driver was not
All contain 5% except the 91, which has zero.
So the 91 is the only one I will purchase for small engines and motorcycles.
How did it do on dyno hill?
Bloody amazing, 3 kmh higher than my best ever result on Chevron. My best ever on Chevron is 114 kmh with the crossover plugged.
Nine times out of ten it runs at 113.
The first run with the Coop gas was at 117 as were the next 2 runs.
Then I had to go for a romp with my new hot gasoline.
It definitely doesn't need another cam, lots of go above 5 k.

Glen
Click to expand...
Have you factored in "density altitude"? It can make a huge defense in HP output from one day to the next.

 
Last edited:
Glen,
Have you tried 87 octane ethanol free in your experiment?
In my experience, these old low compression engines don't need high octane.
 
Mark said:
Glen,
Have you tried 87 octane ethanol free in your experiment?
In my experience, these old low compression engines don't need high octane.
Click to expand...
I haven't been able to find any.
Still searching. My hope was to find some midgrade Ethanol free.
We do get into some knock inducing situations with the Mountain grades so I would go one step higher than minimum octane for safety.
Before ethanol, I ran this bike on midgrade and it never complained, even when racing a friend up the 40 km long Salmo- Creston grade at 95-100 mph in Summer heat.

Glen
 
Last edited:
Dan1950 said:
Have you factored in "density altitude"? It can make a huge defense in HP output from one day to the next.

Click to expand...
I've been using this hill as a tuning dyno for a long time with hundreds of runs on various old bikes. I have the tuned speed for each bike recorded in its log book.
The greatest variation from the norm has been 1 kmhr with same bike, same fuel, same tune.
The runs are all in temps 55-70f.
1 kmh equates to about .8 bhp, so I don't worry about weather, humidity, barometer other than no runs in very cold or very hot weather.

Glen
 
worntorn said:
I've been using this hill as a tuning dyno for a long time with hundreds of runs on various old bikes. I have the tuned speed for each bike recorded in its log book.
The greatest variation from the norm has been 1 kmhr with same bike, same fuel, same tune.
The runs are all in temps 55-70f.
1 kmh equates to about .8 bhp, so I don't worry about weather, humidity, barometer other than no runs in very cold or very hot weather.

Glen
Click to expand...
worntorn said:
Almost Nigel.
113 with my old brand hi octane pure gas.
109 with the 7% ethanol, mainjets optimized ( 270)
117 with the new tryout, Coop brand 91 octane pure gas.

So that leaves 8kmh between the ethanol and the new pure stuff.
To put it into perspective , 100lbs of free weight added to the bike in saddle bags reduced hilltop speed by just 5 kmh.

Glen
Click to expand...
That’s staggering Glen!

Great test.
 
Glen, have you done any variations in ignition timing with the different fuels? I'm thinking you might be able to improve the times on the ethanol gasoline with a bit more advance dialed in. Would be interesting to advance the timing two degrees and see what happens...
 
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