Engine/ Frame Numbers (2005)
- Thread starter Neil
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With thanks to dynodave and his Commando frame chart I have been able to establish some more information.
The engine number (which matches the gearbox number) on the registration document and on the bike's ID plate is 318577, the chart states the engine was produced between July and November 1974.
The original frame number on the registration document is 112958. Using the table we've found it was made between July and November 1974 - the same time as the engine which makes sense as the bike registered January 1975.
The number on the current frame which is stamped into the right hand headstock is F132272 which I think is Italian; there is also the number 06-5632 on the tank left hand mounting bracket which I assume makes it a MK3 frame. The chart suggests the frame was made between April and May 1975.
I am the third owner of this bike that I have owned for 5 years, the previous owner also had the bike for 5 years. When I contacted him he knew nothing about the non-matching numbers. The original owner must have owned the bike for over 20 years, perhaps in this time the frame was changed for one reason or another.
Getting to the route of the problem... Does anybody know if the registration document can be updated to include the current frame number or will it be a case of having to track right back to the original owner to prove the frame has never been registered on a bike before? I am in the middle of a full re-build and currently refurbishing the frame, things are at a stand-still until I sort this out.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Neil
The engine number (which matches the gearbox number) on the registration document and on the bike's ID plate is 318577, the chart states the engine was produced between July and November 1974.
The original frame number on the registration document is 112958. Using the table we've found it was made between July and November 1974 - the same time as the engine which makes sense as the bike registered January 1975.
The number on the current frame which is stamped into the right hand headstock is F132272 which I think is Italian; there is also the number 06-5632 on the tank left hand mounting bracket which I assume makes it a MK3 frame. The chart suggests the frame was made between April and May 1975.
I am the third owner of this bike that I have owned for 5 years, the previous owner also had the bike for 5 years. When I contacted him he knew nothing about the non-matching numbers. The original owner must have owned the bike for over 20 years, perhaps in this time the frame was changed for one reason or another.
Getting to the route of the problem... Does anybody know if the registration document can be updated to include the current frame number or will it be a case of having to track right back to the original owner to prove the frame has never been registered on a bike before? I am in the middle of a full re-build and currently refurbishing the frame, things are at a stand-still until I sort this out.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Neil
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You could enter the correct details in the changes section of the V5C registration document and send it off to the DVLA and see what happens (including a letter explaining the reason for the change if you want)?
Or you could contact the DVLA first and ask their advice? http://www.dvla.gov.uk/welcome.htm
Or you could contact the DVLA first and ask their advice? http://www.dvla.gov.uk/welcome.htm
frame #'s
Neil, typically, the police will only see that aluminum plate. If missing, then they look further. If trying to rectify this number with the goverment chaps is a problem, you might consider simply covering it up. Some plastic auto body filler and careful sanding prior to painting will make it disappear. Then, if at some time you find documents for the frame, you can restore it to view. Sometimes, satisfying the papershufflers is not possible, especially with the timeframe you are looking at. If you do this, document everything, including a signed note from the seller if possible. The problem with hiding the stamped number would be theft recovery might be hindered if the thief removed or swapped the aluminium plate.
Neil, typically, the police will only see that aluminum plate. If missing, then they look further. If trying to rectify this number with the goverment chaps is a problem, you might consider simply covering it up. Some plastic auto body filler and careful sanding prior to painting will make it disappear. Then, if at some time you find documents for the frame, you can restore it to view. Sometimes, satisfying the papershufflers is not possible, especially with the timeframe you are looking at. If you do this, document everything, including a signed note from the seller if possible. The problem with hiding the stamped number would be theft recovery might be hindered if the thief removed or swapped the aluminium plate.
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Re: frame #'s
Unfortunately if Neil did that he will still have a problem when the bike is taken for its MoT (yearly inspection test) as the frame and engine details have to be logged into the (now computerised) system. The 'plate' number (318577) which as Neil says is the same as the engine number will still not match the registered frame details (112958) on the V5C or the DVLA database.
Hopefully Neil shouldn't have too a big problem with the DVLA (government chaps) as he is only correcting an error.
Unfortunately if Neil did that he will still have a problem when the bike is taken for its MoT (yearly inspection test) as the frame and engine details have to be logged into the (now computerised) system. The 'plate' number (318577) which as Neil says is the same as the engine number will still not match the registered frame details (112958) on the V5C or the DVLA database.
Hopefully Neil shouldn't have too a big problem with the DVLA (government chaps) as he is only correcting an error.
Hi guys,
First time poster, just bought my commando yesterday!
The guy that sold it to me said mine was a '75, electric start et al.
On the log book (called the carte grise, I live in France) it says date of first registration '78 now it's entirely possible that means it was the date of the import into France (it started in the UK)
The engine number matches the frame number 336030
Anyone shed any light on it?
Thanks in advance.
First time poster, just bought my commando yesterday!
The guy that sold it to me said mine was a '75, electric start et al.
On the log book (called the carte grise, I live in France) it says date of first registration '78 now it's entirely possible that means it was the date of the import into France (it started in the UK)
The engine number matches the frame number 336030
Anyone shed any light on it?
Thanks in advance.
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Welcome, Mick.
Due to the financial collapse of NVT, approximately 1400-1500 of the last '1975' 850 Mk3s were not assembled until 1976-77 and '336030' would have been one of those late production models and so could easily have been '78 before it was eventually sold.
Mick! said:
Due to the financial collapse of NVT, approximately 1400-1500 of the last '1975' 850 Mk3s were not assembled until 1976-77 and '336030' would have been one of those late production models and so could easily have been '78 before it was eventually sold.
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Resurrection...the dynodave link was very useful. I will forward him some info for the records.
Don't want to remove the red plate yet but will in the future and attempt a limited paint removal to search for stamps as there are non visible currently.
The red plate doesn't have a F mark but is a 104......... Number and the engine a 3105... Which corresponds to late 73 and the bike was first registered 74. The red plate though has a date format I can find elsewhere but for obvious reasons not many pics of real plates about.
6 8 74
Is the marking in the box.
The bike a mk2a 850 has possibly been repaired or replaced framed as although the plate matches perfect in the age parts to engine on dynodaves site it has several feature of the MK3. The extended braces on the shock mounts with the ignition holes but on both sides (MK3 just on one side normally) and the slot hole on the steering lock.
I guess I won't truly know till it gets stripped down for paint and possibly find a number. The gearbox is a fair bit earlier too so I guess has been replaced. I'm thinking that it was dropped and the gearbox and frame repaired at some point. Frame runs ture and it rides a peach so not worried about it, just a little bit of a mystery.
Top info on here and wouldn't have learnt that much if I hadn't spend days reading here.
Cheers Will
Don't want to remove the red plate yet but will in the future and attempt a limited paint removal to search for stamps as there are non visible currently.
The red plate doesn't have a F mark but is a 104......... Number and the engine a 3105... Which corresponds to late 73 and the bike was first registered 74. The red plate though has a date format I can find elsewhere but for obvious reasons not many pics of real plates about.
6 8 74
Is the marking in the box.
The bike a mk2a 850 has possibly been repaired or replaced framed as although the plate matches perfect in the age parts to engine on dynodaves site it has several feature of the MK3. The extended braces on the shock mounts with the ignition holes but on both sides (MK3 just on one side normally) and the slot hole on the steering lock.
I guess I won't truly know till it gets stripped down for paint and possibly find a number. The gearbox is a fair bit earlier too so I guess has been replaced. I'm thinking that it was dropped and the gearbox and frame repaired at some point. Frame runs ture and it rides a peach so not worried about it, just a little bit of a mystery.
Top info on here and wouldn't have learnt that much if I hadn't spend days reading here.
Cheers Will
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The MK2/MK2a's gained some MK3 features during the production run, mine has the extended braces on the shock mounts and was 'Built' Nov 73 but they are flat with no holes. It has the engine number stamped on the red plate 310XXX, the F104XXX number is stamped directly onto the frame close by. The V5 has the F number as the frame number but without the F, this would suggest yours left the factory and was registered with the F number as the frame number and then when the frame was replaced the new red plate followed the V5 not the original red plate.
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I would be inclined to let sleeping dogs lie. If you have a valid V5c based on the number stamped on the aluminium plate life’s good, then if you ever have to change the frame it will be easy re. paperwork. You could in theory sell the aluminium plate and document on. Though that might be sailing a bit close to the wind, I am no expert on these matters.
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The "ignition hole" is actually there for the Mk3 seat lock (RH).
Both Mk3 extended shock mount plates are the same, however, the hole in the LH plate is covered by the seat hinge.
These plates are LH outer and RH inner on Mk3 frames. Some late Mk2/2A frames apparently had the same "Mk3" extended plates but the 'inner' plate on both sides.
The "F" and "104xxx" number would normally be stamped directly onto the frame alongside (or under) the plate and the plate number would usually be the same as the 6-digit engine (and gearbox) number, so the frame plate has probably been changed and stamped to match the vehicle documentation as kommando said. Does "6 8 74" happen to be the date of registration by any chance?
This is a very old thread. Neil's post is from 2006.
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Saw that after I posted, then got sidetracked by phone, could do better as my school report used to say!
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Never mind. It often happens with these old threads.
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Cheers for the replies. I will have to check the inner plate mount when i get back to blighty (current at work on ship) as i want to check the frame tube sizes also. I sadly dont have any pictures that show this. Wont really know then till i remove the red plate and rub back the paint to find the stamped number, but it certainly wasnt visible with the paint currently.
With the excellent links the ages have been easy to ascertain
frame plate (possibly frame too) is Jan 74
engine is late Nov 73
gearbox is mid Sept 73
It a well ages bike so could possibly have been owner rebuilt early in it life. Its unlikely that such a spread of date would have come form the factory like this?
With the excellent links the ages have been easy to ascertain
frame plate (possibly frame too) is Jan 74
engine is late Nov 73
gearbox is mid Sept 73
It a well ages bike so could possibly have been owner rebuilt early in it life. Its unlikely that such a spread of date would have come form the factory like this?
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I sympathize with your problem of machine identification.
I added an informational introduction to help people properly identify the machine ID(VIN) and detect errors or possible outright fraud.
Update sept 2018 http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm
At the June 2018 British Motorcycle Meet, I met and discussed at length with the guy from the British VMCC who is the keeper of factory records including norton records. Discussed at length was the use of records IF they were to be made public access, facilitating fraudulent machine remarking and reidentification.
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johnm
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Hi Dave
After 40 years owning a Commando I should know the answer to these questions but I dont. Can you please answer a couple of simple questions that might help me with my bike ?
It was missing both the red plate and there were no numbers on the gearbox when I bought it. Which worried me except that it came with the original New Zealand "ownership papers" which all checked out. I'm the third owner and have known the second owner 40 years. The bike was sold new in Sept 1975 from a shop that still exists just a few km from where I'm sitting. So the paper work is all ok.
The bike is a Roadster 850 engine no 319265 stamped in the normal place on the engine and Frame Batch no F111966. The FBN no is on the right hand side of the steering head tube. Actually very clear and easy to read. There are no numbers at all on the gearbox. I note these numbers fit the sequence in your table on your Commando Sequence note and look like an approx August 1974 build. I also think the frame is English based on measuring the tube diameters although the bike has always had a terrrible pull to the left if you take your hands off the bars.
My questions.
Would you agree on the August 74 build and should the red plate be stamped 8/74 or Aug/74 ?
Where is this frame no. people mention to be found ? Do they mean the number which is stamped on the red plate (when present) ? I know there is also a frame version or part no which is stamped on the tank mount. This is something else again correct?
I see a variety of numbers entered into the Commando tracker sheet. Given I don't seem to have a "frame number" I have chosen to enter the FBN. Hope this doesn't confuse.
Finally I see that a few NZ owners have entered the NZ VIN no (Vehicle Identification no.) This is a 17 digit no and follows a standard international format adapted to NZ. I don't know when NZ started to use them. (Further investigation suggested they were introduced in April 1994). Mine was added in around 1996 when I put my bike back on the road after 15 years in storage. It is a a number stamped on a silver and black aluminium plate which is rivited to a frame tube by the NZ authority when the bike is first registered. Not always in the same place. Mine is on the main frame tube under the seat.
After 40 years owning a Commando I should know the answer to these questions but I dont. Can you please answer a couple of simple questions that might help me with my bike ?
It was missing both the red plate and there were no numbers on the gearbox when I bought it. Which worried me except that it came with the original New Zealand "ownership papers" which all checked out. I'm the third owner and have known the second owner 40 years. The bike was sold new in Sept 1975 from a shop that still exists just a few km from where I'm sitting. So the paper work is all ok.
The bike is a Roadster 850 engine no 319265 stamped in the normal place on the engine and Frame Batch no F111966. The FBN no is on the right hand side of the steering head tube. Actually very clear and easy to read. There are no numbers at all on the gearbox. I note these numbers fit the sequence in your table on your Commando Sequence note and look like an approx August 1974 build. I also think the frame is English based on measuring the tube diameters although the bike has always had a terrrible pull to the left if you take your hands off the bars.
My questions.
Would you agree on the August 74 build and should the red plate be stamped 8/74 or Aug/74 ?
Where is this frame no. people mention to be found ? Do they mean the number which is stamped on the red plate (when present) ? I know there is also a frame version or part no which is stamped on the tank mount. This is something else again correct?
I see a variety of numbers entered into the Commando tracker sheet. Given I don't seem to have a "frame number" I have chosen to enter the FBN. Hope this doesn't confuse.
Finally I see that a few NZ owners have entered the NZ VIN no (Vehicle Identification no.) This is a 17 digit no and follows a standard international format adapted to NZ. I don't know when NZ started to use them. (Further investigation suggested they were introduced in April 1994). Mine was added in around 1996 when I put my bike back on the road after 15 years in storage. It is a a number stamped on a silver and black aluminium plate which is rivited to a frame tube by the NZ authority when the bike is first registered. Not always in the same place. Mine is on the main frame tube under the seat.
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Is there no frame/chassis number recorded on the ownership document?
F111966 (or 111966) or the (missing) plate number 319265 can be the 'frame' number.
Andover Norton has records for 317848 - 321120 so you might be able to find out.
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/factory-records/
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