Frame Number (2019)

dynodave said:

I will ask the state police here what they think of that concept... strip the vin tag off a legal motor vehicle to put on a different motor vehicle. Completeness of the bike aside...

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That's a very different subject.

In Virginia, if you go by the letter of the law, chainging the engine or gearbox would invalidate the title. But then, there's only one number on the title. If a VA State Cop wanted to be sure the plates went with the bike, I'm sure he would see the engine number and they better match the registration which definitely better match the title. On Nortons, I only buy if the title/engine/gearbox match and I've never come across one where the VIN plate didn't - that would worry me so I wouldn't buy.

Since most frames have no number, or if they do, it is not used as a VIN (not usually, anyway) the frame can be changed without issue in most cases. This is very different on Triumph - the frame number matches the engine number (at least the serial part).

Perfect example of the non conforming state to state laws.
Here in communist massachusetts the either the frame's VIN plate or stamped frame number IS the bike identity, never the engine. It is rumored the early 50's harley were the exception here as to engine # being the VIN.
Therefore my concept that state/government paperwork has no validity when a norton person talks to another norton person to identify the bikes VIN. The frame #, if any exist, are usually irrelevant as to the real norton identity.

dynodave said:

I own 22 norton and have studied, starting in 1988, many hundreds of the ID/VIN plates and post WW2 frame stampings .
Norton factory make the VIN but government agencies collect taxes and frequently misidentify the VIN.
So forget govt paperwork when talking to another norton owner to identify your bike.

"I have been told all frames were stamped"
No credibility!

"some have said the frame was stamped near the headstock on the R side"
some should have said SOME (series) of the frames were stamped near the headstock on the R side
There are other minor variants of frame stamping

"I was told adamantly by someone there would be a frame number"
Again no credibility

Since WW2 and before, all production norton have a VIN vehicle Identification number.
The commando, except for the very early 68 had a VIN plate rivited to the neck(JPN excluded), though the vin plate it had a different name in the IPL. That continued to the end with the 75 model including the "late release" 75's.
The unfortunate fact is the replaceable aluminum plate facilitates confusion and more recently fradulent counterfeit bikes.

All the NOC/AN/ or the British VMCC "records" will show "A" bike did exist, but retagging a bike dies not prove it was "that" bike shown in the records. I am seeing an increasing number of retagged commandos that are of questionable validity.

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dynodave .... i dont want to bad mouth any business here but i was talking to the VMCC now unless i am getting confused they do mention a frame number unless this is the number that would be stamped on the headstock plate i dont know but i do like your comment "There are other minor variants of frame stamping" can you give me some examples to go on mate so i an look. The information that VMCC will confirm is the model and where it was dispatched thats it

dynodave said:

Last spring at the 40th British motorcycle meet, I met with one of the two historic records keepers of the VMCC?
They had been contemplating posting the whole norton records public/ "on-line". He asked my view on this topic which, I of course said, after a long discussion, it was a very bad idea. He agreed.

So now marshg says AN will give you a new plate stamped, You already know what serial number you want.

The NOC required me to send a frame rubbing (prove you have the bike) and pix of frame and # and engine and # before they would confirm factory records report to me.

How many ebay norton with powder coated frames and new VIN tags are frauds. I would rather buy a bike/frame with a nasty original VIN plate or only if a new plate, you get the original vin tag along with it.
Also a lot of the commando frames have the renolds mfg date stamped on the LH gusset under the Z plate. That date of course ALWAYS precedes the bike date.

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I am going to pull the z plate under the LH gusset and have a look for anything thanks mate. I really dont want to label the bike and be classed as a fraud not my thing

Stephen Munton said:

i was talking to the VMCC now unless i am getting confused they do mention a frame number unless this is the number that would be stamped on the headstock plate i dont know

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A '69 - '73 750 frame would not have the serial number stamped directly onto it.

The serial number would be stamped on the plate, therefore, the number on the plate of a 1971 model is the 'frame number'.

L.A.B. said:

A '69 - '73 750 frame would not have the serial number stamped directly onto it.

The serial number would be stamped on the plate, therefore, the number on the plate of a 1971 model is the 'frame number'.

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Thats what i thought mate and if i am correct the number stamped on the plate would be the engine number and that became the frame number...... I am sorry mate so many conversations lately and so many different ideas this page so far has been the only one giving me good solid information shame i didnt find it before making enquiries

They/VMCC might not be as strict about the differences in terminology as I am. Like on norton featherbeds the VIN is in fact a frame stamping.
To me... the VIN is "THE" norton factory legal identifier of a complete motorcycle unit. The fact that the factory calls the red tag a Label Certification, that is the only place on the machine for the VIN that most governments and norton owners recognize.
The earliest 68 commandos were, prior to the red tag, in fact stamped on the LH side of the frame neck.
Your 71 had a red tag when new. 71 and early 72(200000 series) used the same tag pn.
Around 73 different governments required a unique frame stamping identifier. Those are the ones running vertically on the RH side of the neck like the pix shown above. This started some time into the 73 850 production, and continued for both the renolds and italian Verluchi (sp) frames.
The majority of us norton owners recognize the 6 digit VIN number as the VIN to identify the norton number for discussing the bikes.
Individual governments do what ever they feel is necessary in spite of, usually, more educate and seasoned norton owner.

L.A.B. said:

A '69 - '73 750 frame would not have the serial number stamped directly onto it.
The serial number would be stamped on the plate, therefore, the number on the plate of a 1971 model is the 'frame number'.

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LAB hit enter before I finished....

Well obviously LAB and I differ on terminology use. Frame number and serial number are not used here at all what so ever ....As the name for a motor vehicle identifier.
Here in the USA the absolute and only correct term is "Vehicle Identification Number" and it is named that way and used on the federal "certificate of origin" from the manufacturer. That applies for USA, Mexican or Canadian or any import. I still have "certificate of origin" copies from my Ducati's and the new 2017 RAM truck. I don't believe this VIN name is a new concept.
My 73 chevy truck original paperwork is VIN identified.
Time for a beer....my fingers are starting to hurt

All i can say is thanks boys this has cleared things up hugely....... Dynodave i like strict and no BS mate only way to be.... We use a VIN here in AUS as well mate i want it all to be correct when or if i register the bike or god forbid i should have to sell it later on..... I dont want to be known as a fraud or some newbie with no clue ruining classic machines

I'm back:
Beer in hand LOL
fermenting my comments.
I can understand the Certification plate name because the certificate of origin is in fact a written certification from the maker that the '"type" presented to govt for approval on "date specified" on tag is an approved specimen. So of course the date was on the certification plate where the VIN is also required. Back in the day, it is probably Berliner (US importer) that had to fill out and supply the certificate of origin to the dealer who then turned the certificate of origin in with the paper work to the registry so the bike could be registered and titled if that state required it.
71 and 72 had turn signal optional. In model year 1973 federally you had to have functional turn signal standard or it could not be sold here. After purchase and registration, What you did in your home state was at your risk. So date of manufacture probably only mattered at the port of entry if inspected by the Federal customs inspector.

For you, at this time, it probably does not matter one bit if there is a date or not.
If the police will inspect it...Something is probably better than nothing.

Stephen Munton said:

Thats what i thought mate and if i am correct the number stamped on the plate would be the engine number and that became the frame number...... I am sorry mate so many conversations lately and so many different ideas this page so far has been the only one giving me good solid information shame i didnt find it before making enquiries

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I don't know who you were dealing with at the VMCC but although they have the factory records it has to be remembered they are a club for any and all vintage motorcycles.
If you were dealing with the records department then that person (or persons) may not have extensive knowledge of Norton Commandos or frame plates but is probably just quoting from the records.

dynodave said:

Here in the USA the absolute and only correct term is "Vehicle Identification Number" and it is named that way and used on the federal "certificate of origin" from the manufacturer. That applies for USA, Mexican or Canadian or any import. I still have "certificate of origin" copies from my Ducati's and the new 2017 RAM truck. I don't believe this VIN name is a new concept.

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UK registration documents state: 'VIN/Chassis/Frame No.' So, thankfully the system isn't as rigid in the UK and probably elsewhere.
Also these bikes were manufactured well before the VIN system was adopted (at least for motorcycles and a 6-digit number cannot be a true 'Vehicle Identification Number') and the certification plates don't have 'VIN' on them.

For you, it seems you have no choice other than to refer to it as a VIN number but to me it's 'frame' or 'serial' number.

Stephen Munton said:

Thanks gents i contacted some one in England and they apparently have all the Norton Records. I gave them the ?year and engine number but was told they need a frame number to assist them further and of course a small fee would be required to obtain the information

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Engine frame and gearbox number was the same with all 750 Commandos. I’m surprised your source for factory records would ask that question. Engine number is sufficient to find your Commando.

Stephen Munton said:

Thats what i thought mate and if i am correct the number stamped on the plate would be the engine number and that became the frame number......

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What registration documentation (if any) do you have?

If there is no reason to believe the frame is not the original then the frame plate number would have matched the engine number.

illf8ed said:

Engine frame and gearbox number was the same with all 750 Commandos. I’m surprised your source for factory records would ask that question. Engine number is sufficient to find your Commando.

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There are two threads by the OP.

The first thread asked.

I understand the bike is 71 but when exactly was it produced and what model do i have as i want to restore it to its original model

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As posted in that other thread, the dispatch record will give the model, I would be surprised if they gave the date (You would not need to ask if the lost VIN plate was in hand)

The engine number given is in the 1971 range.
It is some 900 after my March 1971 stamped Fastback so very likely an April 1971 stamp on a new plate would be close enough.

There are no numbers stamped on a 1971 frame (I looked) and even if there were they would not give you a date = round in circles.

#144*****
Apr 1971

Might be a Roadster, might be a Fastback, might be a LR Fastback being a Australian bike, only the dispatch record will tell.

LAB
Yes I follow your logic mostly. Of course, here is was always VIN even in the 50's like my model 7 with 5 or 6 digits and decades before the late standardized long number system. But still called VIN, and for us it is always the frame.
That is how I can put the 88 engine in for a season then the 650 for the next season and finally I'll be putting my "combat" atlas engine and it is still legally the same bike based on the frame stamping which the VIN. However those bikes all use the 20 prefix on our VIN.
So I have a 500 then 650 then 750 an maybe some day a 920 Drouin ATLAS.

I'm not much help on the date. I only have a hole there with two 20M3S, 137xxx and jump to 151xxx.

dynodave said:

Of course, here is was always VIN even in the 50's like my model 7 with 5 or 6 digits and decades before the late standardized long number system. But still called VIN, and for us it is always the frame.

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Well, 'VIN' was unheard of in the UK until about '80 - '81 as I remember, at least for motorcycles, not sure about cars or other vehicles but that was generally 'chassis' number.

Time Warp said:

There are two threads by the OP.

The first thread asked.



As posted in that other thread, the dispatch record will give the model, I would be surprised if they gave the date (You would not need to ask if the lost VIN plate was in hand)

The engine number given is in the 1971 range.
It is some 900 after my March 1971 stamped Fastback so very likely an April 1971 stamp on a new plate would be close enough.

There are no numbers stamped on a 1971 frame (I looked) and even if there were they would not give you a date = round in circles.

#144*****
Apr 1971

Might be a Roadster, might be a Fastback, might be a LR Fastback being a Australian bike, only the dispatch record will tell.

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Thanks mate i have tried real hard to obtain registration info but nothing is kept before 1989 lol here in Aus and yes what you have said above is all i have until i can get dispatch records

Stephen Munton said:

Thanks mate i have tried real hard to obtain registration info but nothing is kept before 1989 lol here in Aus and yes what you have said above is all i have until i can get dispatch records

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Perhaps if you supply photo's of the bike in one piece along with a photo of the engine number and missing Date / Engine number tag area and the family history of the bike with an application for the dispatch, you never know.
You will get the model for sure and maybe the date stamp.

Don't forget to dig out that camera, I can host and post the picture if need be.
I have a new 1971 'VIN plate you can have if wanted.
Now back to work.............

Thanks mate the machine is in a very sorry state after being stored in the barn but thats what i am out to do today

At the risk of resurrecting an old thread, I have a question about the late model certification label. There are two fields, the first is for the serial number (I get that) but I do not understand what goes in the second field. It seems to expect a horsepower (PS) DIN: what ever that is. The closest I have come to understanding is the "(PS)" is a metric horsepower equivalent. I have Googled this question and drawn a blank. I hope that one of you, who knows way more than me, with have a definitive answer and can tell me what goes in this field.

Big_Jim59 said:

At the risk of resurrecting an old thread, I have a question about the late model certification label. There are two fields, the first is for the serial number (I get that) but I do not understand what goes in the second field. It seems to expect a horsepower (PS) DIN: what ever that is. The closest I have come to understanding is the "(PS)" is a metric horsepower equivalent. I have Googled this question and drawn a blank. I hope that one of you, who knows way more than me, with have a definitive answer and can tell me what goes in this field.

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That's the European 850 Mk3 label.


"PS — this stands for pferdestarke in German, which literally translates to horsepower. This is the most commonly used measurement in Europe and is the exact equivalent to horsepower in measurement"