Emgo Pistons Mismatched

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It is obvious from your picture that you have two pistons that were produced at much different times and the casting mold had been renewed. That is why the weight is different. Trade them in or grind off the weight to match them. Personally I would send them back for another pair.

JCC / Emgo pistons are by no means an inferior piston. They are standard equipment pistons in Subaru, many Yamahas and have been used by top engine builders for years.

When you are considering a cast vs a forged piston keep in mind the facts.

1. Cast pistons are harder metal . That means they will wear longer on the skirts, pin bores and ring lands.

2. Since they are hard they are more brittle, they can crack and break up if they are subject to detonation.

3. Cast pistons do not grow as much as forged pistons, Therefore they can be fit with less clearance for better oil control and faster heat transfer to the barrel.

4. Forged pistons are soft and ductile. That means they will handle detonation without breaking up but detonation will cause the piston to get hot rapidly which means they will grow more in size and may seize -particularly in a cast iron bore.

5. Each piston has it's good points and bad points. For long life on a regular street motor you will get longer service with a cast piston. I have also road raced very successfully using cast pistons.

6. For pushing an engine to it's limit when racing or running extreme compression or a blower then a forged piston may be the right choice.

7. Forged pistons can be made up in nearly any configuration since they are machined to the needs from a standard forged slug.

8. Cast pistons require a dedicated casting mold which is very expensive and can only be justified for large production numbers. Therefore they are made to a standard configuration since that is where the sales numbers will be highest.

I wish I could run a cast piston in my injected bike. Unfortunately I have not found a suitable piston to fill my needs. But I do have my eye on a possibility. Jim
 
ELMZY said:
freefly103 said:
I have a spare set of JCC 0.020 over pistons with Hastings rings that I am willing to sell at decent price
Thanks for the offer freefly103, but I think if I decide to stick with Emgos I'll try and lighten the problem piston as I've already forked out 500 bucks on machining and balancing to suit this pair.

Fast Eddie said:
Well, far be it from me to nurture the seed that has been planted... but...

These are the JS Motorsport pistons I recently fitted after the first build 'nipped up' and scored one piston. These are the high comp 850 versions, I had them treated with a 'Diamondyze' hard anodising process. I have no previous experience using this treatment method, so we'll see how it pans out:
I think you mentioned to me once before Fast Eddie - something along the lines of "if your going to keep a bike the extra cost of 'doing it right' is nothing when amortised over years". Dunno about nurturing - more like fertilizing and watering.
I have a feeling this seed will germinate - and my wallet vacuum will morph into a black hole :)

I may have said that, but...

the only advice you should ever take from me... Is to never take advice from me...!
 
JUST WONDERING...

I've seen some skirt "windows" for lightening.

IF THEY ARE EFFECTIVE (and safe), why not cut some, and just adjust the size of the windows to get to the proper weight?
 
comnoz said:
It is obvious from your picture that you have two pistons that were produced at much different times and the casting mold had been renewed. That is why the weight is different. Trade them in or grind off the weight to match them. Personally I would send them back for another pair.

JCC / Emgo pistons are by no means an inferior piston. They are standard equipment pistons in Subaru, many Yamahas and have been used by top engine builders for years.
Thanks for that assessment Jim, and the sudsequent information on cast v forged.
I have a question or two - relative to my situation.
The pistons I have (+.020") are fairly evenly matched in size and were used by the machinist to give a .005" clearance.
In your experience, if the pistons were to be exchanged, is it likely they may differ in size to my current set ?
Revisiting the machine shop if they were a tad bigger would be acceptable.
But if they're smaller ?
I'm not keen on it - but is buying a 40 thou over set the only safe option ?
 
ELMZY said:
comnoz said:
It is obvious from your picture that you have two pistons that were produced at much different times and the casting mold had been renewed. That is why the weight is different. Trade them in or grind off the weight to match them. Personally I would send them back for another pair.

JCC / Emgo pistons are by no means an inferior piston. They are standard equipment pistons in Subaru, many Yamahas and have been used by top engine builders for years.
Thanks for that assessment Jim, and the sudsequent information on cast v forged.
I have a question or two - relative to my situation.
The pistons I have (+.020") are fairly evenly matched in size and were used by the machinist to give a .005" clearance.
In your experience, if the pistons were to be exchanged, is it likely they may differ in size to my current set ?
Revisiting the machine shop if they were a tad bigger would be acceptable.
But if they're smaller ?
I'm not keen on it - but is buying a 40 thou over set the only safe option ?

I do not think you would see a difference in size. No way to know for sure unless you find someone that will measure them but I have seen no more than a couple tenth of a thousandth difference in sizes over the past couple years -I've probably fitted at least 50 of them.
If you have a good measurement I can check my stock -for size and weight . Jim
 
comnoz said:
I do not think you would see a difference in size. No way to know for sure unless you find someone that will measure them but I have seen no more than a couple tenth of a thousandth difference in sizes over the past couple years -I've probably fitted at least 50 of them.
If you have a good measurement I can check my stock -for size and weight . Jim
I won't be able to get hold of a decent micrometer until after the weekend but I'd like to confirm the best place to take the measurement. I took measurements with my calipers (3 dec points only), front to back and 1/3 way up the skirt.
My readings were 5 thou less than the figures on the top of the pistons. Final hone figures written by the machinist.
Right - 2.889" and 2.894"(marked).
Left - 2.889/90" and 2.894/5"(marked).
I'm in no hurry. I'll give the supplier time to reply to my request for an exchange.
My main goal is to get the right pistons, from wherever I can.
 

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comnoz said:
... JCC / Emgo pistons are by no means an inferior piston...

Mismatched pistons. Mis-sized pin clips (another thread). That's a quality control problem.

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Elmzy - it sounds like you are going to try to make them work by lightening one piston. Finding another pair to match your already honed bore is going to be a big problem. I've drilled and chamfered the skirts of JE and Hepolites as below. You can also drill six shallow dimples (2 rows of 3) underneath the dome with a 1/2" bit in a drill press (minimum .150" dome thickness). Or you can get in there with a die grinder and hog away with a bur. Its a lot of work either way you do it. Having a machinist mill the inside of the piston with a rotary table could get expensive - I've done it and its time consuming.

Emgo Pistons Mismatched


It might look weird but the holes in the skirts won't hurt anything. I drilled my skirts. They have 30,000 miles with them so far and work perfectly.
Emgo Pistons Mismatched


Or you can just put up with the imbalance and get better pistons next time.
 
jseng1 said:
Elmzy - it sounds like you are going to try to make them work by lightening one piston. Finding another pair to match your already honed bore is going to be a big problem. I've drilled and chamfered the skirts of JE and Hepolites as below. You can also drill six shallow dimples (2 rows of 3) underneath the dome with a 1/2" bit in a drill press (minimum .150" dome thickness). Or you can get in there with a die grinder and hog away with a bur. Its a lot of work either way you do it. Having a machinist mill the inside of the piston with a rotary table could get expensive - I've done it and its time consuming.

Emgo Pistons Mismatched


It might look weird but the holes in the skirts won't hurt anything. I drilled my skirts. They have 30,000 miles with them so far and work perfectly.
Emgo Pistons Mismatched


Or you can just put up with the imbalance and get better pistons next time.
Great info Jim, and great pics, thanks.
I've been giving this idea some thought since Grandpaul suggested it.

grandpaul said:
JUST WONDERING...


I've seen some skirt "windows" for lightening.

IF THEY ARE EFFECTIVE (and safe), why not cut some, and just adjust the size of the windows to get to the proper weight?
Maybe even a combination - drill the skirts and fine tune inside with a dremel.
When I joined this forum it was with a view to pick up a few tips to assist with my rebuild.
I'm pleasantly surprised by the level of professional technical information so freely available.
It certainly inspires confidence in a layman. Much appreciated gents.
 
I would not drill the skirts on a cast piston.

I just weighed 6 new .020 over pistons.

set 1 -222.4 &224
set 2 -222 &222.1
set3 -235.6 &237

All were within .0001 in size. Jim
 
ELMZY said:
I'm pleasantly surprised by the level of professional technical information so freely available.
It certainly inspires confidence in a layman. Much appreciated gents.
comnoz said:
I would not drill the skirts on a cast piston.

I just weighed 6 new .020 over pistons.

set 1 -222.4 &224
set 2 -222 &222.1
set3 -235.6 &237

All were within .0001 in size. Jim
:shock:
Did I say confidence ? Or confusion ?
All good.
I realise there are points of view in everything in life.
Now...... Set 1 or 2 look the goods Jim (comnoz), considering the crank's been balanced to my 223 gram piston.
I'll need to confirm with some accurate size measurements and get back to you.
 
Good stuff here. Thanks Jim and Jim.

My opinion, if your engine NEVER sees detonation, then cast pistons are best, every time, because their tight clearances keep the rings perpendicular to the bore. Forgings "rock" forward/aft more because of their greater clearances, especially at cold start, and those few loose moments knock the corners off of the rings.

As for ventilated skirts, all those Yamaha reed valve two strokes, had cast pistons with two stock holes in their back sides. To improve breathing we cut the entire back out of the pistons, leaving just two "legs," one on each side of the reed valve. They ran better but, yes, we did break some of those "legs" off.
 
xbacksideslider said:
Good stuff here. Thanks Jim and Jim.

My opinion, if your engine NEVER sees detonation, then cast pistons are best, every time, because their tight clearances keep the rings perpendicular to the bore. Forgings "rock" forward/aft more because of their greater clearances, especially at cold start, and those few loose moments knock the corners off of the rings.

As for ventilated skirts, all those Yamaha reed valve two strokes, had cast pistons with two stock holes in their back sides. To improve breathing we cut the entire back out of the pistons, leaving just two "legs," one on each side of the reed valve. They ran better but, yes, we did break some of those "legs" off.

Yep, went through the same with the old Yamahas. They were ok with big holes if you replaced them about every 10 hours.
I also tried it with a set of Powermaxes in my Norton racebike. They didn't last long. I noticed a rattle and pulled it down. The skirts were hanging on by the last little bit. Cracked almost all the way across right through the holes. Jim
 
Elmzy
Here's a photo of original cast Hepolite pistons that I ran on the street until the motor wore out. The underdomes are dimpled. I also used to do this to my early race bikes before I came up with the lightweight pistons. I never had any problems with the drilled skirts - and I ran the Hepolites until the ring lands gave out. But I haven't tried it on the Taiwan versions. You'll figure out whats best for you - fixing them or swapping them out.

Emgo Pistons Mismatched



Xbacksideslider
Concerning rocking - Elmzy is using .005" clearance for his cast pistons - you can use .0055" on the forged pistons. Not much clearance difference.
 
I didn't get the response I was after from the piston supplier. Admittedly I was asking for a matched set @ 223 grams(+/- 1g).
His words - "The pistons we source are factory packaged in sets and we ship as such, we have matched them in the past when requested by a customer prior, but as I'm sure you know, most folks are not balancing to the degree you are. In the future we are always happy to provide such a service to you".
It's not worth paying ANOTHER 50 bucks to return them, then he spends ANOTHER 50 sending them back. That's 150 on shipping and they only cost 120 - and there's still a chance they won't be suitable. I was offered store credit as an exchange, but I've moved on - to a DREMEL.
My Dremel sculpting skills aren't real tidy - but I got the problem piston down to 223 grams, hopefully without making the underside of the head too thin.

There's no way I could have got in there without the slim hand piece extension. My 4200 is too bulky...........


The first pass took the bottom layer off, and I thought I was most of the way there.
But it was only 4 grams out of 14 ..............



So, I got stuck into the corners and edges, where there was a bit of meat .................



Not as ugly when you zoom out - ay !? :roll: ..................
 

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I would have started by grinding off the logo and number castings; it would have been a fairly small amount, but would not have presented any sort of potential sacrifice.
 
14 grams is a hell of a lot to remove. 15 is about as much as I can lighten a piston (from 185 down to 170 grams for 750cc) And its everything I can do including undercrown 3D milling, cutting away at the pin boss and drilling the skirts. You can also taper bore/grind the pins but that's only good for 3 or 4 grams.

Emgo Pistons Mismatched


A quality piston company can deliver the same size pistons within 1 or 2 grams - batch after batch.
 
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