Drum brakes.
- Thread starter Bernhard
- Start date
Thanks but this is not it. I am looking for plates looks exactly like original commando plate. Something like to mirror original right 2-lead plate to the left and made drum for both sizes to have a 4-leading brake. And with 40 holes to fit with original rim. This one has 36 holes.
madass140
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cant say I've ever heard of anyone making a left side brake plate copy of the right side, it would be a big outlay for some one to manufacture , with a doublsided Norton hub being costly to produce, and at the end of the day even though its
double sided its still only an 8" brake. I manufacture the Norton standard drum brake, doing a back to back wouldnt be a viable project, maybe some one in the past did this, but I dont recall.
double sided its still only an 8" brake. I manufacture the Norton standard drum brake, doing a back to back wouldnt be a viable project, maybe some one in the past did this, but I dont recall.
Norton did not make a 4 Ls, unless someone knows different .
Lots of 500 Manx Nortons were fitted with a 4LS front brakes, made by, amongst others Robinson; try Goggle images Norton Manx, Petty Manx e.t.c.
Below are some of the images collected ;
http://images.search.conduit.com/ImageP ... rt=0&pos=8
http://images.search.conduit.com/ImageP ... =35&pos=10
http://images.search.conduit.com/ImageP ... t=70&pos=2
Lots of 500 Manx Nortons were fitted with a 4LS front brakes, made by, amongst others Robinson; try Goggle images Norton Manx, Petty Manx e.t.c.
Below are some of the images collected ;
http://images.search.conduit.com/ImageP ... rt=0&pos=8
http://images.search.conduit.com/ImageP ... =35&pos=10
http://images.search.conduit.com/ImageP ... t=70&pos=2
madass140
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I had some Robinson brakes which I considered replicating, but in my opinion they were a very poor design, in particular the hub, the Yamaha 260mm brake is far superior,
Well now that its established that Norton made 4LS brakes there should be no problem acquiring one , problem solved.
Well now that its established that Norton made 4LS brakes there should be no problem acquiring one , problem solved.
[quote
Who said Norton ever made a 4LS front brake :?:
Care to explain :?:
[/quote]
The last series of Manx Norton race bikes (from about 1960 to 1962) were equipped with a Norton designed double sided 2LS which I guess you could say was a 4LS. These are still in production (replicas) and popular with current Classic racers.
Mick
Who said Norton ever made a 4LS front brake :?:
Care to explain :?:
Code:
The last series of Manx Norton race bikes (from about 1960 to 1962) were equipped with a Norton designed double sided 2LS which I guess you could say was a 4LS. These are still in production (replicas) and popular with current Classic racers.
Mick
ML said:
The last series of Manx Norton race bikes (from about 1960 to 1962) were equipped with a Norton designed double sided 2LS which I guess you could say was a 4LS. These are still in production (replicas) and popular with current Classic racers.
Mick[/quote]
I stand corrected, then.
I like Andy Molnar's stuff a lot, he has modern equipment and is very professional to deal with. Here is a link to his replica 4LS Manx brake:
http://www.manx.co.uk/products/hubs/manx4lsf.htm
http://www.manx.co.uk/products/hubs/manx4lsf.htm
johnm
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I have recently converted a Norton Dominator 7 " centres SLS to a Manx 4LS (for racing) and offer the following.
Firstly and probably most importantly a replica Norton 4LS front brake is seriously expensive. Together with the other changes you need to make you will not have any change from US$4000 plus.
If you want to look at cheaper options you could look at alternatives on this site.
http://www.discovolantemoto.co.uk/brakes/cat_3.html
If you go the Manx 4LS route Andy Molnar is indeed one of the main suppliers but I actually bought mine from a friend in Australia. http://www.eurospares.com/greg.html
I consider his option to be better in the mechanical details but thats only my opinion and Molnar's are used everywhere. My Ozzie brake has been used by Chris Swallow on NZ street circuits and he gave it a big thumbs up. (son of Bill Swallow 9 times Classic Manx winner. Chris has also had good placings in the Manx)
Further considerations.
You will need to buy Manx sliders (from Molnar) because the brake anchor system is different than a Commando. You will then not have the holes for Commando mudguard struts. The Manx sliders will fit on to Commando forks.
The 7 3/8 versus 7 " centres is not a big deal but you will have to make up spacers and longer brake anchor fixtures.
The 4LS brake has big airscoops which will not suit everyday use in the rain.
The brake is magnesium but you might be able to get an aluminium replica made on special order.
The brake does not look like a Commando brake.
These are racing brakes and vendors will expect you to be able to set them up right. Arcing the shoes. Remachining the liner after the hub is spoked into the rim. (or buy a whole wheel already set up)
They are the top end of the market and they are neither cheap nor fit and forget
Regards
John
Firstly and probably most importantly a replica Norton 4LS front brake is seriously expensive. Together with the other changes you need to make you will not have any change from US$4000 plus.
If you want to look at cheaper options you could look at alternatives on this site.
http://www.discovolantemoto.co.uk/brakes/cat_3.html
If you go the Manx 4LS route Andy Molnar is indeed one of the main suppliers but I actually bought mine from a friend in Australia. http://www.eurospares.com/greg.html
I consider his option to be better in the mechanical details but thats only my opinion and Molnar's are used everywhere. My Ozzie brake has been used by Chris Swallow on NZ street circuits and he gave it a big thumbs up. (son of Bill Swallow 9 times Classic Manx winner. Chris has also had good placings in the Manx)
Further considerations.
You will need to buy Manx sliders (from Molnar) because the brake anchor system is different than a Commando. You will then not have the holes for Commando mudguard struts. The Manx sliders will fit on to Commando forks.
The 7 3/8 versus 7 " centres is not a big deal but you will have to make up spacers and longer brake anchor fixtures.
The 4LS brake has big airscoops which will not suit everyday use in the rain.
The brake is magnesium but you might be able to get an aluminium replica made on special order.
The brake does not look like a Commando brake.
These are racing brakes and vendors will expect you to be able to set them up right. Arcing the shoes. Remachining the liner after the hub is spoked into the rim. (or buy a whole wheel already set up)
They are the top end of the market and they are neither cheap nor fit and forget
Regards
John
madass140
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good info John, I agree, the Manx replica is far from suitable for a road going project, plenty of options, but Arpi
insists on a double Commando brake which would be fine but I've never heard of anyone casting the other side.
I sell quite a few of my Norton/TZ 10-1/4" 4LS brakes to Japan, the brake is from the same era which seems to be important to them. I have had requests to supply these with 40 hole hubs instead of 36, I dont know why when the 36 with 8G Stainless spokes is a much stronger wheel than the 40 hole butted 10G spoke Norton wheels.
some one on this forum is actually using 32 hole front rim.
apart fom the common Grimeca or Suzi brakes , new 4LS brake will cost from $1500 up, way up.
insists on a double Commando brake which would be fine but I've never heard of anyone casting the other side.
I sell quite a few of my Norton/TZ 10-1/4" 4LS brakes to Japan, the brake is from the same era which seems to be important to them. I have had requests to supply these with 40 hole hubs instead of 36, I dont know why when the 36 with 8G Stainless spokes is a much stronger wheel than the 40 hole butted 10G spoke Norton wheels.
some one on this forum is actually using 32 hole front rim.
apart fom the common Grimeca or Suzi brakes , new 4LS brake will cost from $1500 up, way up.
johnm
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" Arpi insists on a double Commando brake which would be fine but I've never heard of anyone casting the other side. "
No I agree I have never heard of anyone doing that either. You have to do a left hand slider mod as well. You would really really have to love the Commando brake plate to go to all that trouble. Hub, brake plate and slider - lots of work /$.
For a short time I tried swapping my Norton SLS brake plate which conformed to our clubmans class to a Commando 2LS brake plate when we raced in the modified class.
It was a straight drop into the same hub and wheel. The 2LS had Vintage brake linings, stiffening kit, big airscoops vented rear and through the hub and set up as well as I could do.
It was a better brake than the SLS but had the same fade issues. On a Pukekohe type track with really only one hard stop it could last a short race but three hard stops in a row had the brake to the bars and that was it. Even adjusting during the race at the handlebar made only a tempory improvement.
In my opinion the brake drum/hub was expanding way too far (there is only a thin steel liner cast into the hub) the extra mechanical efficiency of the 2LS only lasted until the drum expanded and that was it. Spokes were loose and the hub was hot as hell when the bike came in.
In the early mid 50s Norton made a composite front brake hub - half steel half aluminium. Like a Velo hub. And this brake does not fade as much. This would give you a better brake and still be Norton although it is heavier and looks a little bit different. Pretty sure a Commando 2LS brake plate could be made to fit. Still only single side of course.
If and when we go back Clubmans racing that hub is waiting hidding under the bench.
No I agree I have never heard of anyone doing that either. You have to do a left hand slider mod as well. You would really really have to love the Commando brake plate to go to all that trouble. Hub, brake plate and slider - lots of work /$.
For a short time I tried swapping my Norton SLS brake plate which conformed to our clubmans class to a Commando 2LS brake plate when we raced in the modified class.
It was a straight drop into the same hub and wheel. The 2LS had Vintage brake linings, stiffening kit, big airscoops vented rear and through the hub and set up as well as I could do.
It was a better brake than the SLS but had the same fade issues. On a Pukekohe type track with really only one hard stop it could last a short race but three hard stops in a row had the brake to the bars and that was it. Even adjusting during the race at the handlebar made only a tempory improvement.
In my opinion the brake drum/hub was expanding way too far (there is only a thin steel liner cast into the hub) the extra mechanical efficiency of the 2LS only lasted until the drum expanded and that was it. Spokes were loose and the hub was hot as hell when the bike came in.
In the early mid 50s Norton made a composite front brake hub - half steel half aluminium. Like a Velo hub. And this brake does not fade as much. This would give you a better brake and still be Norton although it is heavier and looks a little bit different. Pretty sure a Commando 2LS brake plate could be made to fit. Still only single side of course.
If and when we go back Clubmans racing that hub is waiting hidding under the bench.
johnm said:I have recently converted a Norton Dominator 7 " centres SLS to a Manx 4LS (for racing) and offer the following.
Firstly and probably most importantly a replica Norton 4LS front brake is seriously expensive. Together with the other changes you need to make you will not have any change from US$4000 plus.
The brake is magnesium but you might be able to get an aluminium replica made on special order.
They are the top end of the market and they are neither cheap nor fit and forget
Regards John
With reference to the following ;
The brake is magnesium but you might be able to get an aluminium replica made on special order.
I suggest you avoid this metal unless you use the bike only on a race track, when it comes into contact with road salt, even if given a coat of paint, it will turn into powder.
Magnesium parts in use should not "be painted", they should be dichromated, which is boiling them in the appropriate witches brew that passivates (and can color) the entire surface - rather like anodising for aluminium passivates/colors the surface.
The real problem with using magnesium is that it used to be rather prone to cracking, and modern mg alloys are still not totally immune from the problem. X-raying or crack testing old race bikes will often show the magnesium parts are a jigsaw puzzle in waiting - I've seen a magnesium hub explode while being laced up in someones race shop. Harold Willis, pre-war Velo race shop ex-supremo and famous for his phrasing, used to call magnesium parts "electrified dirt". !!
Crack test them, regularly, if using old parts. The aviation business flies on this program.
A good welder can repair them though - the aviation business flies on this too.
The real problem with using magnesium is that it used to be rather prone to cracking, and modern mg alloys are still not totally immune from the problem. X-raying or crack testing old race bikes will often show the magnesium parts are a jigsaw puzzle in waiting - I've seen a magnesium hub explode while being laced up in someones race shop. Harold Willis, pre-war Velo race shop ex-supremo and famous for his phrasing, used to call magnesium parts "electrified dirt". !!
Crack test them, regularly, if using old parts. The aviation business flies on this program.
A good welder can repair them though - the aviation business flies on this too.
johnm
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Talked to my mate in Oz and he can make (edited) Manx 4LS 100 % aluminium ones if you want.
They still cost Oz $3000 plus for a complete wheel and will take a good 3 to 4 months to deliver. There more than $1500 worth of parts - rim, spokes, nipples, bearings, bare castings, brake shoes etc in them even before he starts any machining.
They still cost Oz $3000 plus for a complete wheel and will take a good 3 to 4 months to deliver. There more than $1500 worth of parts - rim, spokes, nipples, bearings, bare castings, brake shoes etc in them even before he starts any machining.
