Dodgy Wheelbuilding?

Rich_j · Jul 13, 2010

Ticking things off one a time to try cure the front end going crazy at 80mph I had the front wheel balanced today.
As it happens it wasn't too far out but the guy doing the balance was less than impressed with my wheel.

The spokes on the disk side aren't straight.

Is this normal for a Commando?

Rich

L.A.B. · Jul 13, 2010

Rich_j said:
The spokes on the disk side aren't straight.

Is this normal for a Commando?

Curved spokes are never right, as far as I'm aware!

The (alloy?) rim certainly appears to have been drilled wrongly for that application.

Would it be possible for you to show a couple of slightly wider angle photos, (one taken from each side?) so we can see a better view of the spoke layout?

Rich_j · Jul 13, 2010

Its a bit hard to get a good view of the disk side, hope these are OK.

L.A.B. · Jul 13, 2010

OK, thanks for the extra photos, which along with the original photo, shows that not only are the holes in the rim at the wrong angle, but more importantly, on the Norton disc wheel, the right side spokes should cross to the left side dimples and vice versa.
The wheel has also been laced 'Triumph disc wheel' pattern, not Norton disc style as both inner spokes radiate away from the hub in the same direction, and both outers do likewise in the opposite direction.
The fact that the wheel has been laced 'Triumph style' isn't a fault in itself, but the fact that the dimple drillings are way off, which is apparently causing the spokes to bow, certainly would be, in my opinion.

Rich_j · Jul 13, 2010

Thanks for all the feedback.

It sounds like I've got a pretty big bill coming to sort this mess out.
The guy who built the wheel has retired now so I don't think I'll have much joy trying to chase him down.

Think I'll take the wheel down to Norman White at the weekend and see what he can do with it.

Hobot · Jul 13, 2010

Hmm, flash back to my first wheel rebuild about 2 years ago.
ugh. Just realize you are not alone in finding this not surprised
by it front the famous part sources

If an Excel rim supplied by likes of Buchannan's then the rim
holes are not drilled to take the more extreme angle required
by Norton front disc hub and once nipped up everything
aligned centered and tuned >> there will be bows in the
disc side spokes. I'm told no rim drilling rigs sold last
couple decades allows angle for front Norton needs.

I suppose your bowed spokes could upset handling in a bee
line but I have my doubts as Buchannan's and other seasoned
wheel builders tell me its a non issue in this slightly bowed case.

hobot

swooshdave · Jul 13, 2010

I would love to hear Matt's take on the Buchanan's drilling. I'm not sure if he'd accept bowed spokes. Coco has some of their wheels. Wonder if his are bowed.

snakehips · Jul 13, 2010

It also looks from the picture that the spokes are the same gauge on each side. A disk front wheel should have heavier gauge spokes on one side.

Rich_j · Jul 13, 2010

Had a look at Buchanan's website and they say of the post '73 Commando hubs

"Rims must be drilled specifically to fit this hub due to the severe offset of the rim to the hub"

Sounds like they're well aware of the issue.

Pity I didn't come across any of this a long time ago.

L.A.B. · Jul 13, 2010

snakehips said:
It also looks from the picture that the spokes are the same gauge on each side. A disk front wheel should have heavier gauge spokes on one side.

Originally, yes, but it's unlikely a wheelbuilder would go to the trouble-especially for a non-standard rim.

swooshdave · Jul 13, 2010

Rich_j said:
Thanks for all the feedback.

It sounds like I've got a pretty big bill coming to sort this mess out.
The guy who built the wheel has retired now so I don't think I'll have much joy trying to chase him down.

Think I'll take the wheel down to Norman White at the weekend and see what he can do with it.

1. Where did the wheel (rim) come from? Was it drilled for a Norton and by who?
2. If it was drilled correctly but the spoke put in wrong you might get away with a rebuild and maybe new spokes.

Hope it's that easy.

Hobot · Jul 13, 2010

Buchannan has in their office files 1973 as first year for front LH disc.
Yet 1972 Combat had Norton's first front LH disc.
Bragging about knowing about the extra spoke angling aint't the
same as providing it.
I went round and round with them, mostly with Mr Buchannan
on this very issue. Still had to send back first spoke set as wrong
lengths and again chat with owner to get some credit applied
i ordered lighter necked set for front but thicker necked rear set.

MIght give a ping and get them to directly address the reality
of why they say to expect their Norton front disc rim to bow spokes.
Do they or they not really supply a factory spec rim?
Not to me. even though it was hand marked for disc side.

hobot

snakehips · Jul 13, 2010

L.A.B. said:
snakehips said:

It also looks from the picture that the spokes are the same gauge on each side. A disk front wheel should have heavier gauge spokes on one side.

Click to expand...

Originally, yes, but it's unlikely a wheelbuilder would go to the trouble-especially for a non-standard rim.

My wheelbuilder did and I would expect any wheelbuilder to build it with the correct specification parts unless of course you are saying Norton need not have done that in the first place?

willh · Jul 13, 2010

I know you guys are talking about fronts but my rear disk wheel, Excel 18" drilled by Buchanan s bowed spokes. Worse than that, the drilling was barely in the dimples on some of them. Made for a very ugly wheel. If I were to do it again I'd go no dimples and have http://www.woodyswheelworks.com/index.shtml drill and build my wheels.

MarshalNorton · Jul 13, 2010

Willh,
I agree w/ you if Bucannan sent me a wheel looking like that at todays prices,
I would be sending it back and telling them how sorry their service is.
I can't believe they drilled that far off center of the dimple.
I would not expect a customer to accept this kind of work if I was in the trade.
They should have seen how off line the drillings were and called or emailed you
and advised you of the results and suggested a rim w/o dimpling.
Now if Wolverhampton in their heyday could drill the pattern correctly why can't they get it right today?
If excell had incorrectly placed the dimples then you don't use it for a commando - that simple.
I was shocked to see such mounted up like that.
Marshal

willh · Jul 13, 2010

MarshalNorton said:
Willh,
I agree w/ you if Bucannan sent me a wheel looking like that at todays prices,
I would be sending it back and telling them how sorry their service is.
I can't believe they drilled that far off center of the dimple.
I would not expect a customer to accept this kind of work if I was in the trade.
They should have seen how off line the drillings were and called or emailed you
and advised you of the results and suggested a rim w/o dimpling.
Now if Wolverhampton in their heyday could drill the pattern correctly why can't they get it right today?
If excell had incorrectly placed the dimples then you don't use it for a commando - that simple.
I was shocked to see such mounted up like that.
Marshal

With the exception of buying Sun rims,( no dimples), I have taken my business elsewhere. Latest project will run '70s aluminum mags.

RennieK · Jul 13, 2010

If it's any consolation Willh, I have an exell 18' rim laced to a 75 rear disc hub and it is identical. I bought it used so I don't know who did it. It came with one bent spoke and some loose ones. I think the problem is with the increased spoke angle needed for the 18" rim. You can see the old wear pattern from the original 19" rim on the hub.

Looking from the inside you can see they had very little room to move the hole over to center without having the shoulder of the nipple contact the side of the dimple. I think who ever tries to lace this hub to this rim will be up against the same problem. Sometimes you just have to fudge it. (Keep in mind this photo is much larger than actual scale so it's hard to judge but there is very little room to drill closer to center here)

Hobot · Jul 13, 2010

Yes. sp apparently no one is making rims with enough dimple room nor
drill rigs capable of matching the Norton weird wheel.

Glup if almost reaching dimple rim is pause for comment, glup
Ms Peel's 19" front has them over hanging dimple edges and
causing most my trouble to seal them I think.
I was pleased I did not have to trim spokes once wheel done.
They either ended up ~1/16" deep or 1/32" proud.
So right spokes for supplied rim. I quizzed various vendors and builders
like flat trackers and MX bikes, to have my concerns relieved
to run the snot out of it.

Main deal is the bend is at the ends and not d/t crossed spokes
in a bind.

Norton spoke pattern is considered about the strongest
with 3 spoke crossings and spokes arranged at the tangent
to hub not radially. Crosses in hub rim lip count.
On this rim the spoke bow was at exits from nipple threads.

L.A.B. · Jul 13, 2010

snakehips said:
L.A.B. said:

snakehips said:

It also looks from the picture that the spokes are the same gauge on each side. A disk front wheel should have heavier gauge spokes on one side.

Click to expand...

Originally, yes, but it's unlikely a wheelbuilder would go to the trouble-especially for a non-standard rim.

Click to expand...

My wheelbuilder did and I would expect any wheelbuilder to build it with the correct specification parts unless of course you are saying Norton need not have done that in the first place?

Then you have an exceptional wheelbuilder-by modern standards-that is.

As the modern trend is to use stainless spokes, then "original" factory spec. is no longer relevant, presumably your wheelbuilder refuses to use them?

L.A.B. · Jul 13, 2010

willh said:
I know you guys are talking about fronts but my rear disk wheel, Excel 18" drilled by Buchanan s bowed spokes. Worse than that, the drilling was barely in the dimples on some of them. Made for a very ugly wheel.

The MkIII rear disc rims had a 3 x 1 (3 - left, then 1 - right) dimple pattern, presumably that pattern isn't always easily sourced-especially where alloy rims are concerned, so is no doubt why the drillings are on the very edges of the dimples, and the spokes still end up bowed as a result of the drillings not being exactly right?

Dodgy Wheelbuilding?

Rich_j

L.A.B.

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