Crankshaft play end and maximum tolerance
- Thread starter pierodn
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pierodn said:
Hello Piero,
I only know 3 Phase Lucas alternators with 3 wires. If you have a 2 wire alternator it maybe a single phase with high output. And as far as I know there are different Podtronics for 2 and 3 Phase. That could be the problem. I think single phase alternators with 3 wires can be possible, but no 3 phase with 2 wires.
Ralf
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pierodn said:
A 3-phase Lucas stator has three wires, however, there are also three-wire single-phase stators (RM 19) etc. that need two output wires connecting together (green/black and green/yellow) for '12V' output.
Your burnt-out stator is certainly 3-phase.
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I enlarged a couple of Piero's pictures because I am really interested in how the new Lucus rotors are assembled. According to Lucas's website the rotors are described as having a "superior welded centre". I emailed Lucus through their website asking what is involved in the welded centre process. Of course they never responded. The pictures below show evidence that the magnets were welded to the hub by using a resistance type of welding such as projection welding which would basically form a spot weld. I would like to know if this is the case.
Arrows are pointing to the possible weld location on the rotor's hub
Arrow is pointing to one of the rotor's magnets showing a possible weld location
It would be nice if Lucus would create a YouTube about the "superior welded centre" process and then put it on their website. It would be good public relations for their company.
I know this has nothing to do with Piero's alternator failure. I just find the manufacturing process interesting.
Peter Joe
Arrows are pointing to the possible weld location on the rotor's hub
Arrow is pointing to one of the rotor's magnets showing a possible weld location
It would be nice if Lucus would create a YouTube about the "superior welded centre" process and then put it on their website. It would be good public relations for their company.
I know this has nothing to do with Piero's alternator failure. I just find the manufacturing process interesting.
Peter Joe
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pierodn said:
Hi Piero,
the only test I know is measuring the output with a multimeter instrument. You can try to contact Coventry Spares whether they could check the box.
http://www.coventrysparesltd.com/
Or you can contact Joe Seifert. He is the German Norton parts distributor and Podtronics dealer as well. I think, he would deliver to Italy as well. You can comunicate in English.
http://www.nortonmotors.de/index_Gb.htm
I would prefer the 14,5 A stator, because it has higher output on lower revs. But if it is not available I would take the 10,5 A as well.
Regards,
Ralf
To day i have had the first summary chek of the wires.
The Podtronics 3 phase had the three yellow wires well fit into the three wires from stator.
The red was on ground fit to another red from harness and the black to the blu/brown from battery,
I had fit a fuse between the black wire from powerbox and the wires to battery: the fuse eas broken.
It means something?.
Ciao
Piero
The Podtronics 3 phase had the three yellow wires well fit into the three wires from stator.
The red was on ground fit to another red from harness and the black to the blu/brown from battery,
I had fit a fuse between the black wire from powerbox and the wires to battery: the fuse eas broken.
It means something?.
Ciao
Piero
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pierodn said:
Hello Piero,
the broken fuse could be a hint for a problem with the power box, but it could also be a fault in the electric system. Normally the engine stop when the fuse breaks. So there must be something wrong in the wiring.
I had a look into the wiring diagram of the workshop manual. The blue/brown is also connected to Zener and rectifier. Do you have them still installed ? The black wire from the powerbox should be connected directly to the battery.
Ralf
Towner said:
Hi Ralf.
The fuse was from the the black Of Podtronics and the blu/brown from battery.
There was no Zener Diod more neither the rectifier.
I think the problem was the broken fuse .
Infact from the power box the current could not go to the battery because the wire was interrupt by broken fuse.
But the stator go on to create high voltage without any exit.
So the stator/rotor melted.
In poor words, the stator go on to make current that didnt go to nothing side.
I think it was all because of the extra fuse that mistakenly had installed and that prevented the current from the power box to the battery pops out!
Ciao
Piero
cyclegeezer
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pierodn said:
It's rather doubtful that a blown or broken fuse would cause the stator to melt down. More likely is that the rotor failed, allowing contact and high friction between the rotor and stator, heating it all up to melting temperature. Why the woodruff key didn't shear is a mystery.
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My guess would be the rotor and the stator were making contact with each other and started heating up. I had a case where the stator wire broke from vibration at the first connection out of the primary inner case and the red idiot light turned on. I turned off the headlight and drove 10 miles back home with no ill effect. I was running just on battery. I fixed that wire and continued on with out incident. Nothing melting if the space is correct.
Piero
I use a shim stock of brass 0.009" that I cut exactly the diameter of the rotor with no overlap, ( it is a little wider than the rotor width) and use this wrapped around the rotor while loosely fitting the stator to the three studs. Use blue loctite for assembly with the nuts. After tightening everything up, I take the brass shim out then slowly crank the engine over in several places and recheck with a feeler gauge for correct clearance between the two.
Sorry to see that train wreck but its repairable. With all that heat I would check your drive side crank superblend bearing and a new output shaft seal.
Thomas
CNN
Piero
I use a shim stock of brass 0.009" that I cut exactly the diameter of the rotor with no overlap, ( it is a little wider than the rotor width) and use this wrapped around the rotor while loosely fitting the stator to the three studs. Use blue loctite for assembly with the nuts. After tightening everything up, I take the brass shim out then slowly crank the engine over in several places and recheck with a feeler gauge for correct clearance between the two.
Sorry to see that train wreck but its repairable. With all that heat I would check your drive side crank superblend bearing and a new output shaft seal.
Thomas
CNN
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pierodn said:
Hi Piero,
the question is where the fuse is located. I suppose it is in the blue/brown wire between battery and Podtronic. In this case a fault would blow the fuse but the engine would not stop because the alternator can still deliver current into the system via the blue/brown wire. It would not matter whether it is a fault in the system or a problem of the Podtronic or alternator. The problem was that the engine did not stop.
Ralf
o0norton0o
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pete.v said:
........ ALSO if anything, a continuous un-zienered current would damage the battery, but not the windings or the stator.
In my opinion, the most probable scenario is,.... the rotor delaminated and rubbed on the stator until it got so hot that it melted. The bike continued to run because the battery had enough charge to provide spark for a while. Then the parts of the melted stator and broken rotor were finally dislodged and caught by the triplex chain, they got jammed into one of the sprockets which blew the chain apart.
When I bought my bike 37 years ago from a friend, he sold it to me because he couldn't figure out that the stator was misaligned. He would charge the battery so the bike would run, then ride it somewhere and get stuck riding home when the battery ran out of charge. He would pick the bike up in his van, charge the battery, and the next weekend he would do the same thing all over again... He sold it to me because he couldn't fix it...
A norton will run for a while with a charged battery and an inoperative rotor/stator... but eventually the battery wont have enough charge to fire the spark plugs and the bike won't run. In piero's case, he had a rotor/stator meltdown as he rode along on spark provided by his battery until his meltdown blew his triplex chain up and he was done.
CanukNortonNut said:
Hi Thomas.
Stator and rotor had clearance enough.
The other two my bike went and come back without any problem.
My hand and my knowledge is the same for all my bikes.
Sorry if i insist, but if the alternator loaded to empty for four hours, so that the coils of the stator was to much charged without exit, could be heated them and deforming went to rub on the rotor destroying it?.
Why not?
Thanks.
Piero
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pierodn said:
Hello Piero,
it would be better to locate the fuse in a position that the ignition is without power when the fuse is blown. When you remove the fuse, the ignition switch must be without power, so that the engine cannot be started.
Ok that the fuse was blown at this location and the fact that alternator is burnt shows that the problem was in the alternator circuit (a short-circuit fault). There could be different reasons. Perhaps a wire was broken or the podtronics had a fault or the chain has touched the wires. But in the end you have to renew everything anyway. And if it were mine I would renew the podtronics as well. With this damage it would be a wonder if it has no defect.
Ralf
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