Can electronic ignitions do this?

Good, bad, or indifferent current EI products for the Norton Twin do not go to full advance right off idle unless your engine will hit 5K RPM right off idle. Drag bike spinning the rear tire maybe. Members that know how to use the Search function have seen the chart with some of the popular EI ignition curves posted in 2013 or earlier I would think.

Magnetos are old technology like Nortons are. JH has made a few improvements because components are better than they were 69 years ago. I wanted one when I was a kid. Times change.

I could open the "open at 75" envelope in 15 months and I'd be able to kick start my Norton like it needs to be done unless I'm dead. The 0006 version TriSpark with a 3 Ohm Compu-Fire dual firing coil makes it easy. I don't know how long the ignition will last, but it is working today.

Greg I never think about injuries or what may happen down the road, why worry myself, I take each day as it comes and so been lucky all my life but I have suffered a bad left knee being run over by a car at 17 years old and 2 other injuries to the same knee and only had one left arm fracture and a broken thumb about 8 years ago.
As for my Norton I have it tuned for no kick back at all and only a full kick is the first kick of the day after that my Norton fires up pretty easy without jumping on the kicker, the longer kicker also help there, I have always had chicken legs from a young skinny days, I was 9 stone nothing when I brought my Norton new at 17 and too this day I carry a bit too much around the mid-section but I still have chicken legs, nothing has changed there.
From a very early young skinny lad I learned very quick how to kick my Norton to life with ease but if it takes more than 5 kicks to start I be showing it, my legs aren't that strong, but so far the JH has made kicking my bike to life easier than any other ignitions system I have run.
I have also found if I have my left leg a bit higher from the ground say 3" using on road gutter/curve height or a concrete besser block to get the left leg up higher I find the swing on the kicker is a lot easier and lot less effort to swing the kicker, try it one day as it works for me, but it's also kicks over on flat ground, just a little bit more effort, I also never use a side stand or centre stand to kick my Norton over and when the motor is still at temp I can always kick it to life sitting on the seat, couldn't do that with my stock or EI ignitions systems (as far as I can remember) as the other systems seem to need more/effort swing to fire up.
What may happen down the road as I get older, I don't know, no one can predict that, so I just hopefully make things a lot easier for me.

Ashley

ashman said:

Greg I never think about injuries or what may happen down the road, why worry myself, I take each day as it comes and so been lucky all my life but I have suffered a bad left knee being run over by a car at 17 years old and 2 other injuries to the same knee and only had one left arm fracture and a broken thumb about 8 years ago.
As for my Norton I have it tuned for no kick back at all and only a full kick is the first kick of the day after that my Norton fires up pretty easy without jumping on the kicker, the longer kicker also help there, I have always had chicken legs from a young skinny days, I was 9 stone nothing when I brought my Norton new at 17 and too this day I carry a bit too much around the mid-section but I still have chicken legs, nothing has changed there.
From a very early young skinny lad I learned very quick how to kick my Norton to life with ease but if it takes more than 5 kicks to start I be showing it, my legs aren't that strong, but so far the JH has made kicking my bike to life easier than any other ignitions system I have run.
I have also found if I have my left leg a bit higher from the ground say 3" using on road gutter/curve height or a concrete besser block to get the left leg up higher I find the swing on the kicker is a lot easier and lot less effort to swing the kicker, try it one day as it works for me, but it's also kicks over on flat ground, just a little bit more effort, I also never use a side stand or centre stand to kick my Norton over and when the motor is still at temp I can always kick it to life sitting on the seat, couldn't do that with my stock or EI ignitions systems (as far as I can remember) as the other systems seem to need more/effort swing to fire up.
What may happen down the road as I get older, I don't know, no one can predict that, so I just hopefully make things a lot easier for me.

Ashley

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Amazing we be alive after all the crazy stuff in the past. Keep on trucking.

Good post Ashley. I always appreciate your posts and love your bike. My comments aren't an obsession with advance curves or the lack of them. If you look at the development of ignition systems, the early cars had an advance lever on the steering wheel to manually advance the spark when the engine's rpm's sped up. Once distributors were developed, they took over the job of advancing the spark timing from the manual system. So,...... It seems like spark timing is rather important...... and that made me wonder why all magnetos that don't have an advance mechanism didn't evolve into one's with an advance mechanism..... It's a simple, logical question, based on every other type of vehicle ignition system evolving to use a spark advance mechanism... It just seems logical that a magneto would evolve too in all cases, so that seems to suggest that spark timing isn't all that important, where I thought it was very important..... So I was looking to learn why or why not...

I think magnetos are totally cool. I think planes used them extensively because they were so reliable and airplane engines run at steady speeds. Also, a hit from an enemies bullets that disabled a war plane's electrical system wouldn't necessarily stop the engine from running...

While fixed ignition timing may be ok on a Commando, that does not apply to all engines.

I have several single cylinder manual advance, magneto ignition motorcycles, mostly Ariel, which are timed at 38 degrees full advance, or up to 41 degrees advance with the lower compression engines. All those mags are rewired and have new condensers. One is a Lucas racing mag while the others are Lucas magdyno.

Only one of these bikes will idle at full advance, the others will kick back when running and stop if over advanced . In city traffic I never use full advance and always retard when slowing to a stop. And don’t try starting any of them with any advance at all or there will be a savage kickback.

I used to own a 1981, 250 cu in 6 cylinder Ford Falcon. After fitting a 2 barrel Webber and a cam I got a reasonable performance increase. However the biggest acceleration gain that I achieved was when I took the car to a local dyno operator who had a reputation for distributor tuning. That involved bending/altering the distributor plate and altering the springs as well. Basically he altered the auto advance curve and provided what was then known as a distributor graph that plotted the advance, revs and horsepower in a graph. His graph showed before and after and there was a big difference between the two. On the road it was a different car. The acceleration improvement was dramatic and the car no longer pinked down low. From then on I had no problem out accelerating a mates 302 Falcon V8.
David

Harley binned magnetos in 1929 with introduction of the flathead. Most British makes went to coil ignition 30 years later when alternators had replaced generators. It was a question of cost and reliability.
In the fifties we had a small boat with a rotating magnet SEM magneto. It had a spring loaded mechanism that made it spin faster giving stronger spark when hand cranked.

Mike40M said:

Harley binned magnetos in 1929 with introduction of the flathead. Most British makes went to coil ignition 30 years later when alternators had replaced generators. It was a question of cost and reliability.
In the fifties we had a small boat with a rotating magnet SEM magneto. It had a spring loaded mechanism that made it spin faster giving stronger spark when hand cranked.

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A Wyco "snap magneto"

"I think planes used them extensively because they were so reliable "

That's why they use TWO magneto systems.

That involved bending/altering the distributor plate and altering the springs as well.

Ahh - takes me back to the muscle car era!!

Re Mags/aircraft...FWIW, there is now an EI system certified for aircraft. Generally, one magneto is retained and the other replaced by an EI. If you want two EI systems, a second battery has to be installed to separately power one of the EIs with no other electrical duties. With 1+1, the aircraft is normally operated on the EI, which provides better fuel economy/efficiency with the mag being the back up.

Early Joe Hunt with the red top?

concours said:

Early Joe Hunt with the red top?View attachment 116464

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A dual point model

concours said:

Early Joe Hunt with the red top?View attachment 116464

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NOW who doesn’t like mags ??

baz said:

A good working k2f will produce a big fat spark when turned by hand
If it doesn't there's something wrong with it

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I tested turning the K2F I have by hand. No Beuno. I did actually have it rebuilt and used it for maybe 12 years, but it obviously died again. Must be why I removed it and with modifications and a Commando timing cover installed a 2S cam, points and coils initially. (Pre-Commando engine.)

ashman said:

As I see it and I say modern magnetos as the revs pick up the spark get bigger and better so really wouldn't that be the same as what an advance unit does,

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You seem to be hypothesizing that spark energy can, in some way, influence ignition timing? I don't think so. If you set your magneto at 28 deg BTDC that's what you get from kick start speed all the way to redline.

my Joe Hunt with the 4 rare earth magnets produces a nice big spark even when turning it slowly by hand and because it does why it will fire my Norton quiet easily without retarding it

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Your big spark won't start the engine if it occurs too early, and the (kickstarted) engine isn't turning fast enough; and that's down to technique, a bit of luck and a whole bunch of other variables. All things being equal retarded timing is always going to make kick-back less likely.

ggryder said:

You seem to be hypothesizing that spark energy can, in some way, influence ignition timing? I don't think so. If you set your magneto at 28 deg BTDC that's what you get from kick start speed all the way to redline.



Your big spark won't start the engine if it occurs too early, and the (kickstarted) engine isn't turning fast enough; and that's down to technique, a bit of luck and a whole bunch of other variables. All things being equal retarded timing is always going to make kick-back less likely.

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I never did say it influence ignition timing I just asked if it was the same as I am no expert on these things I just know my own Norton, I static time my Joe Hunt at 28 deg BTDC as usual, once the bike is running I will advance it, if there is no kick back, once I get a little kick back I slightly retard the timing till no kick back when starting it, I have never used a timing light on my Norton in 48+ years of owning it (don't even own a timing light) and doing it my way works for me.

Setting my timing the way I do it has always started my motor with one kick every time, to me a big spark plays a big part in that, yes technique does play a big part (been doing it for 48+ years so must know what I am doing), I must have it right as I never get any kick back and as I have always said the first kick of the day will always be a full swing on the kicker, but once it has fired up I can do lazy kicks and it will always fire up 1/2 way through the swing of the kicker at full advance and in 13+ years only kick back was when first setting/tuning the JH ignition, hasn't kicked back since and with near 45K miles with the Joe Hunt on my Norton.

My Norton will putter around at low rev when riding the suburbs and crack open the throttle it will get up and go with out any hesitation at all right through the rev range, no misfire, just get up and go, with the work done to my motor it will rev very freely, but I no need to rev it up too 8K RPMs and beyond, no need to throw a conrod or anything, I look after my motor and as I have said in my other replies after 48+ years of owning my Norton since new with the Joe Hunt it's running the best it ever has since installing it, so to me that big spark has made a bit improvement to my Norton's running, but tuning the carbs also plays a bit part it's not only ignition timing but carbs as well they both work together for an easy start and running motor.

Ashley

Schwany said:

I tested turning the K2F I have by hand. No Beuno. I did actually have it rebuilt and used it for maybe 12 years, but it obviously died again. Must be why I removed it and with modifications and a Commando timing cover installed a 2S cam, points and coils initially. (Pre-Commando engine.)

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Definitely something badly wrong with it then

Schwany said:

Good, bad, or indifferent current EI products for the Norton Twin do not go to full advance right off idle unless your engine will hit 5K RPM right off idle. Drag bike spinning the rear tire maybe. Members that know how to use the Search function have seen the chart with some of the popular EI ignition curves posted in 2013 or earlier I would think.

Magnetos are old technology like Nortons are. JH has made a few improvements because components are better than they were 69 years ago. I wanted one when I was a kid. Times change.

I could open the "open at 75" envelope in 15 months and I'd be able to kick start my Norton like it needs to be done unless I'm dead. The 0006 version TriSpark with a 3 Ohm Compu-Fire dual firing coil makes it easy. I don't know how long the ignition will last, but it is working today.

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I do not know if my Boyer goes to full advance immediately. I just set it to 34 degrees for methanol and jet to it. If it is wrong, it does not matter - because the jetting balances the compression ratio and the ignition advance. I adjust the jetting. Bob Rosenthal sets the jetting then advances the ignition advance to get maximum torque - it might be a better way. When you use a Commando-based race bike, the usable rev range is from 5,500 RPM to 7300 RPM. Whatever cam, exhaust system, jetting, ignition timing and gearing you use - that is the usable rev range. Everything needs to suit the circuit on which you race.
Close ratio gears are essential. With wide ratios and low overall gearing, the Commando engine is stupid.
The tendency for most guys is to look what happens with short stroke, light crank motorcycles, and judge from that. Commando engines are very different. If you lower the gearing with a Commando engine, the bike does not usually accelerate faster.

acotrel said:

I do not know if my Boyer goes to full advance immediately. I just set it to 34 degrees for methanol and jet to it. If it is wrong, it does not matter - because the jetting balances the compression ratio and the ignition advance. I adjust the jetting. Bob Rosenthal sets the jetting then advances the ignition advance to get maximum torque - it might be a better way. When you use a Commando-based race bike, the usable rev range is from 5,500 RPM to 7300 RPM. Whatever cam, exhaust system, jetting, ignition timing and gearing you use - that is the usable rev range. Everything needs to suit the circuit on which you race.
Close ratio gears are essential. With wide ratios and low overall gearing, the Commando engine is stupid.
The tendency for most guys is to look what happens with short stroke, light crank motorcycles, and judge from that. Commando engines are very different. If you lower the gearing with a Commando engine, the bike does not usually accelerate faster.

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As far as I know Boyer goes to full advance at 5000 rpm
Others may know better than me

baz said:

Definitely something badly wrong with it then

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Well, if it doesn't have something "badly" wrong with it now, it will when I get done taking it apart and putting it back together.

Schwany said:

Well, if it doesn't have something "badly" wrong with it now, it will when I get done taking it apart and putting it back together.

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Failed insulation in the armature is the major fault with magneto ignitions. They detoriated by heat and age too, unfortunately.
The insulation used in the 50's and early 60's may not have been as good as today's materials.

A failed armature can be detected:

- Knut