Boyer to Tri Spark conversion in progress

Point taken re the wasted spark.
A degree of two out should make no difference, it should at least try to start, or run badly.

Hi L.A.B., thanks for your reply. I'll try to clarify a little below, I'm still learning the correct terminology for many of these things so I apologise if I've not been making sense.

- By "rotor" when I was asking how to tell the difference between TDC and BDC, I mean the rotor on the left side (in the primary). It has a slightly raised metal part with a marking on it at 180 degree intervals (so two of them) and the image I added to the previous post shows the position of the marking at TDC. The rotor in the Tri Spark has been set as per the instructions and the LED is illuminating (and creating a spark at the plugs) at the correct moment according to the 28 degrees setting that was made on the primary side.

- Regarding the wiring from the Tri Spark, the diagrams show the correct black/yellow and black/white connections. The 3 wires that come out of the Tri Spark stator are red, black and black/white - to make it work I connected the black/yellow (to the ignition switch) to the black/white (from the Tri Spark), the black/white (from the coil) to the black (from the Tri Spark) and the red to the pillar bot. The only other wiring configuration doesn't work.

- I've added a different image below that shows the rotor on the primary side in the 28 degrees BTDC position (I think), I've researched this as much as I can and it looks correct according to everything I've seen so far. My only concern is that I'm setting it using the wrong timing mark, as there are two at 180 degree offsets and I don't know how to tell them apart.



I know that some of what I'm asking may seem stupid and I apologise for that, I'm here to learn and I greatly appreciate any advice.

I guess my main question is, how to I make sure I've set the timing using the right mark?

peter12 said:

Point taken re the wasted spark.
A degree of two out should make no difference, it should at least try to start, or run badly.

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This was my thought too, it makes me think I've set it way off. I'm just a little reticent to fiddle with the timing too much in case I cause some damage.

Branch said:

Regarding the wiring from the Tri Spark, the diagrams show the correct black/yellow and black/white connections. The 3 wires that come out of the Tri Spark stator are red, black and black/white - to make it work I connected the black/yellow (to the ignition switch) to the black/white (from the Tri Spark), the black/white (from the coil) to the black (from the Tri Spark) and the red to the pillar bot. The only other wiring configuration doesn't work.

Click to expand...

OK, that sounds better, but as your Tri-Spark has a black instead of black/yellow then I'm at a loss to explain this. I can only suggest you email Steve Kelly (TriSpark) and ask him what's going on.

Branch said:

- I've added a different image below that shows the rotor on the primary side in the 28 degrees BTDC position (I think), I've researched this as much as I can and it looks correct according to everything I've seen so far. My only concern is that I'm setting it using the wrong timing mark, as there are two at 180 degree offsets and I don't know how to tell them apart.

Click to expand...

If the pistons are at (1st photo), or close to (2nd photo) the top of their stroke as you stated earlier, then it will be the correct timing mark.

L.A.B. said:

Branch said:

Regarding the wiring from the Tri Spark, the diagrams show the correct black/yellow and black/white connections. The 3 wires that come out of the Tri Spark stator are red, black and black/white - to make it work I connected the black/yellow (to the ignition switch) to the black/white (from the Tri Spark), the black/white (from the coil) to the black (from the Tri Spark) and the red to the pillar bot. The only other wiring configuration doesn't work.

Click to expand...

OK, that sounds better, but as your Tri-Spark has a black instead of black/yellow then I'm at a loss to explain this. I can only suggest you email Steve Kelly (TriSpark) and ask him what's going on.

Branch said:

- I've added a different image below that shows the rotor on the primary side in the 28 degrees BTDC position (I think), I've researched this as much as I can and it looks correct according to everything I've seen so far. My only concern is that I'm setting it using the wrong timing mark, as there are two at 180 degree offsets and I don't know how to tell them apart.

Click to expand...

If the pistons are at (1st photo), or close to (2nd photo) the top of their stroke as you stated earlier, then it will be the correct timing mark.

Click to expand...

Okay thanks L.A.B. - I'll email Tri Spark and see if they have any ideas.

Branch said:

Hi L.A.B., thanks for your advice, my only concern is that once I remove the Boyer and its box I've have no idea what wire goes where! I'll roll up my sleeves and start the process tomorrow (it's 11pm here at the moment) and when/if I get stuck I'll update this thread with a plea for help and photos of whatever progress I have made. I had done all my research as if I were just doing the points -> Tri Spark conversion so I'll read up more on the Boyer system tonight. Thanks again!

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I always take a bunch of digital photos before I disassemble anything Some of the drawings in the manuals are not very clear.

I had same problem. Installation looked good, but timing was off. You need to time Tri spark at top dead center. Pull your plugs and valve covers , exhaust cover for cylinder you are trying to time, and intake cover. Rotate motor until you find compression stroke. Verify by checking both valve lifters are loose. Use rear wheel to bump timing mark to correct advance mark. Recheck tri spark rotor and see if correctly installed for TDC. Readjust if necessary. Hope this helps.

jamesp said:

I had same problem. Installation looked good, but timing was off. You need to time Tri spark at top dead center. Pull your plugs and valve covers , exhaust cover for cylinder you are trying to time, and intake cover. Rotate motor until you find compression stroke. Verify by checking both valve lifters are loose. Use rear wheel to bump timing mark to correct advance mark. Recheck tri spark rotor and see if correctly installed for TDC. Readjust if necessary. Hope this helps.

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Thanks James, I just double checked this with the plugs out to make sure the pistons were in what I think is the right position (near TDC and on the upcycle). The engine still won't start but it does often make a bang if I manually move the rear wheel to the Tri Spark's firing position after I've tried to kickstart it a few times and there is residual fuel in the cylinders.

Today I double checked the following:

- Sparks on both plugs
- Fuel in tank
- Fuel in carburettor
- Compression
- Timing position
- Tri Spark installation

I'm pretty much at the limit of my troubleshooting ability now, the only thing I can think it may be is the timing marks might be off on the alternator rotor on the primary side. Is it possible that a previous owner installed the alternator incorrectly? I don't know how to check this and my Google searches haven't helped much, my last idea is to try setting the Tri Spark to fire at different locations (26 degrees, 24 degrees, 22 degrees etc) and see if it springs to life. Is this worth trying or could it lead to damage?

Thanks again for any advice!

Probably more damage to your kicking leg than the bike is possible if timing is advanced too much. Kickback can be severe on some Commandos.

You do not list a location in your profile.
Is it possible there is another Commando owner or a good British bike shop in you area that can assist?
Remotely troubleshooting via the forum can be frustrating - another set of eyes and hands on the machine could solve it more easily.

Also, although they are generally quite reliable, another poster here recently had a defective Trispark unit that had to be replaced by the manufacturer.
You might try contacting them to see if you unit might have the same problem.

Branch said:

I'll email Tri Spark and see if they have any ideas.

Click to expand...

So, did you contact Tri-Spark and get any explanation about why your Tri-Spark has a black instead of a black/yellow wire, and why that would result in it sparking with the black/white connected the opposite way to how it is shown on the wiring diagram?

Branch said:

I'm pretty much at the limit of my troubleshooting ability now, the only thing I can think it may be is the timing marks might be off on the alternator rotor on the primary side.

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If the main part of the rotor has become loose on the inner sleeve, or if the woodruff key had sheared then it's possible?

Branch said:

Is it possible that a previous owner installed the alternator incorrectly?

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Fairly unlikely, as there's normally only one keyway in the rotor and the crank so the rotor should only fit in one position.

Branch,
This is just a suggestion, hopefully to to reviewed by someone more knowledgeable than me before you try it. In you first picture you say that you engine is at TDC. I see what is either a timing mark or the edge of the pad that the mark is stamped on, it lines up with 16 degrees BTC . The timing scale has a 28 degree range.If you were to rotate the engine backwards so that the mark that is @ 16 is now at 44 degrees you should theoretically be at 28 degrees BTDC. It should put you close enough to start your bike. I am not familiar with Tri-Spark so I don't know if it matters what cylinder needs TDC compression to set up you unit. So just be aware of that. Good luck.
Pete

"So, did you contact Tri-Spark and get any explanation about why your Tri-Spark has a black instead of a black/yellow wire"

My Tri Spark also has a black wire. I believe my black wire is attached to the same wiring that comes from the switch, but I would have to double check when I get home from work.

My bike is running, but I am having another problem with misfire over 4000 and uneven running, which I am trying to work through on another post.

Branch said:

Thanks Peter, I'll order that seal and gasket now. I'll get the tool you mentioned too.

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You should also replace the conical seal on the oil pump and the crank seal white you're in there.

jamesp said:

"So, did you contact Tri-Spark and get any explanation about why your Tri-Spark has a black instead of a black/yellow wire"

My Tri Spark also has a black wire. I believe my black wire is attached to the same wiring that comes from the switch, but I would have to double check when I get home from work.

My bike is running, but I am having another problem with misfire over 4000 and uneven running, which I am trying to work through on another post.

Click to expand...

Thanks for looking into this James, I've contacted Tri Spark about it and will update with the reply.

Just to update, Tri Spark kindly got in touch and basically agreed that it's likely a timing issue. The black wire actually has a very narrow/faint yellow line on it which I hadn't seen until I put the flashlight on it - so that answers that question.

At this point I've tried setting the timing from 44 degrees BTDC down to 22 degrees BTDC, moving in 2 degree increments. I've tried setting it to 28, 29, 30 and 31 and worked the kickstarter to no avail. I'm going to have one last go at it tomorrow, I'm going to set it to 28 degrees, and try a few different settings on the carburettor just in case it's set too lean or too rich - although it shouldn't be as the Mikuni hasn't been changed since it was running two weeks ago.

If that doesn't work I'm going to hire and trailer and take it to an expert, if anyone has a Norton mechanic in Sydney they could recommend I'd be very grateful!

Branch said:

Just to update, Tri Spark kindly got in touch and basically agreed that it's likely a timing issue. The black wire actually has a very narrow/faint yellow line on it which I hadn't seen until I put the flashlight on it - so that answers that question.

Click to expand...

But it doesn't explain what you said in a previous post that it only sparks when the black/white and (now) black/yellow wires are connected opposite to the diagram?

L.A.B. said:

Branch said:

Just to update, Tri Spark kindly got in touch and basically agreed that it's likely a timing issue. The black wire actually has a very narrow/faint yellow line on it which I hadn't seen until I put the flashlight on it - so that answers that question.

Click to expand...

But it doesn't explain what you said in a previous post that it only sparks when the black/white and (now) black/yellow wires are connected opposite to the diagram?

Click to expand...

That's a good point, I'd forgotten about it with all that's going on, I'll write back to Tri Spark now.

Okay the bike is now running! I've been very confused by the wiring loom as it's not even close to much of what I'm seeing in the official Commando wiring diagrams.

Long story short, I had my wires crossed (up under the fuel tank) and it didn't even occur to me until I went over everything with the multimeter. This is why the Tri Spark would only spark with the wires crossed, full credit to the Tri Park stator - it's working flawlessly despite me wiring it wrong and cranking it over 50+ times. It's a tough piece of kit.

I facepalmed myself when I realised what the issue was, it's a good sign that I need to buy a new loom and replace what's on the bike now.

In other news, the Tri Spark has transformed the way the bike runs. It now idles and runs like a modern motorcycle and it starts first kick - which I find incredible.

Thanks so much to you all, your patience has been much appreciated!

Hi Branch,

I have a 73 850 as well and I've just replaced my old RITA with a Tri Spark. I followed the directions regarding 28^ BTDC and set the TS stator so the LED just comes on and then tightened the pillar bolts. The bike starts,
but not on first kick and sometimes kicks back. After it does start it runs ok but intermittently backfires and runs rougher than with the RITA. I've used a strobe, but I can't see the darn timing mark. Did you have any issues with fine tuning?

Andy M

millerandy said:

After it does start it runs ok but intermittently backfires and runs rougher than with the RITA. I've used a strobe, but I can't see the darn timing mark.

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If you can't see the timing mark at all under the strobe light-especially when the revs are increased to around 4000 RPM, then the timing must be a long way off from where it should be.