Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank liner...

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

It would probably be worth it to a law firm to take a class action lawsuit to the governement, the oil companies... for the damages done to everyone. I am sure many people were bothered by the use of ethanol and never knew what broke their vehicule's fuel systems. Many boat owners know about it because they have fiberglass tanks, we also know about it because of the early Norton also had fiberglass tanks, but the general public has no idea that little plastic gizmo in their carbs or injectors broke because of what was in the tank.

Any lawers out there :?: Woah, what am I saying, lawers would ride Harleys :roll:

Jean

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

A class action was taken by wealthy boat owners in the US. However as the oil companies and US government is far more wealthy than the boat owners, the outcome was pretty much a foregone conclusion.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

The marine industry has been dealing with this problem. There is a fuel additive available called Startron. It is called an emzyme fuel treatment. It is claimed that it counter acts the bad effects of ethanol . Based on a recomendation of a mechanic friend I have started to add it to my bikes mostly because they sit for long periods with gas in the tanks. When I restored my BSA over 20 years ago I put Kreem in the tank to protect it from rust. With the switch to corn gas I have not noticed any problem. For my Norton I purchased a metal tank.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Well, guys, I didn't post it for a 'know all-end all" sort of thing. Some very good data gleaned from it, at least by me. First, if I recall the paper properly, the original (fabricated) tank was painted on both interiors, then sealed shut. Then, a second coat was 'sloshed' around the interior in hopes to put the same barrier coat over the 'seam' of the tank closure. As we know, this sealer failed. The grad students stated that they assumed the interior 'slosh' (second coat) may well have missed a part of the seam which sealed the two tank halves.

The second of several things I noted, was that in the appendix, later experimentation, they made sure they sealed the bowls perfectly with the same barrier coat... yet it failed again, even though they took care.

Obviously, the one which kept failing is not a desirable barrier coat.
As for the second one, Northern, which did work 'perfectly': they clearly state at the end that, while marketed as for a steel tank, they had no issues with it in the fiberglass, though also stated (words to the effect) that they did not have the Northern in for long term effect, implicitly, in effect, stating they did not know the long term adhesion factor of the barrier coat on fiberglass.

In any event, proving Jean (and all others, myself included) that the tank truly does benefit from opening it up, rather than just 'sloshing', REGARDLESS of the product used. In any event, I found it a great read, hoping some of you did, too. :mrgreen:

P.S. Boz: I just read about Startron. From what I read, it does NOT protect from ethanol, itself, just helps clean up the sludge and water ASSOCIATED with ethanol fuel use.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Novalac epoxy is indeed resistant to a wide range of chemicals, but using it as a tank sealer in unmodified form is a bit like using soft solder rather than weld/braze to build a motorcycle frame!

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Hehe, impervious sealers is sorta like condoms with a bit of a leak. Don't knock "soft" solder as real good metal glue as it bonds real well over much surface area it can be stronger than brazing and welding and pulls base metal apart before the seam fails. Trick as usual is to get full coverage and surface prep it can stick too.

So far I've only found one reference to Caswell failing in a new FG tank, all others have some mystery factor mentioned, not leaching cleaning etching prior, not letting=forcing, leaching cleaning etching solvent [acetone/toluene] adequately to dry out prior or not covering a tiny area of coverage.

Maybe the mentioned diluting chemical is not alcohol resistant but if the base epoxy is and no place alcohol can get between it and FG, then why would it fail?
Hold off using your FG tanks until a few more years of me and Wesley and a bunch of others gets back with good or bad news.

Don't hold breath on removing the Monsanto powered corn from fuel and food economy but there is alternative lurking in Butane fuels, once the cartels can get a foot hold in that.
http://www.popsci.com/environment/artic ... nd-ethanol

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Tests carried out by the students dont really provide a great deal of information. The most important thing for a tank sealing product is obviously it must be fully resistant to fuel that will be placed in the tank. However the temperature achieved during cure greatly affects the final level of chemical resistance, and this is why resin manufacturers recommend specific post cure processing to ensure the highest level of chemical resistance is achieved. This means that anyone who seals a tank in very hot weather, and leaves it in the sun for week before adding fuel, has a much better chance of the sealant actually working.

Improper post cure processing is the main reason a fair number of recently manufactured GRP tanks are likely to fail, as its very easy for a thin moulding such as a fuel tank to overheat in the crude type of ovens that are most often employed, and this will result in failure but for a different reason than that of inadequate or no post cure. Its not difficult to post cure properly, but this often involves extra outlay for new equipment, and many small scale producers are not willing to make the investment.

Failure of resins products which have been improperly cured is a lot more likely in hot climates, where ambient temperatures are higher. But this is offset by the fact that the initial cure may well have been more complete anyway! In colder climates anyone using a resin based tank sealing product would be well advised to see if they are able to carry out some form of post curing, as this will increase chemical resistance.

Industry standard testing involves samples being properly post cured according to MDS, and only then being subjected to long term immersion testing, often involving sample coupons being bonded together with the sealing product, and force measured required to separate the 2 pieces, and again after immersion testing has been carried out. In general whether or not a product is deemed suitable for a particular application is determined by the percentage difference between the force required to separate untested coupons, and that following immersion testing.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

This means that anyone who seals a tank in very hot weather, and leaves it in the sun for week before adding fuel, has a much better chance of the sealant actually working.

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Maybe this will save Wes and my tanks when we get outside reach of our non alcoholic stations. Clear fuel filter may help catch failure before clogging engine.
Found NOS fiberglass fender, gel coat on top side, raw fiber resin under. Got time side put on a Combat today but too dark too fast and cold to fart with epoxy test till after April. Steel Roadster tank is Caswell coated a few years ago and crashed and repaired outside since, so have a non FG experiment going too.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Thinking more about what the students did, it appears they did their tank in two pieces with the seam not at the bottom, but somewhere in the middle vertical walls which to me is the hardest to coat by sloshing the product in the tank, the sealer would tend to run to the bottom and possibly not adhere to the seam they were so desperatly trying to cover. To be fully effective, I think it would be best to have the cut all the way at the bottom (or better still, at the top) and let the sealer pool at the bottom (or on the top while the tank was up side down) covering the seam completely while the sealer was drying out.

It may be more of an application problem than a product problem.

Jean

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

I would put my money on the students creating a void(s) between the butt joint of the top and bottom and under the joining tape, sort of a bubble between the two tank parts and the joining tape with an opening to the inside of the tank itself. The joining tape goes over some complex curves making it hard to sit hard against the tank halves. Their layup doesnt sound particularly confidence inspiring either

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

I'm a lawyer; that said, I am not experienced in either product liability or not fit for warranted purpose law. That said, here's my 2 cents.

The reason, generally that corporations escape liability in this type of situation is that they work with government, politicians and legislators in a mutually beneficial regulatory circle jerk; each are co-opted, tit for tat, mutual back scratching. By cooperating, industry can always say "the government made me do it." Often, the fight between inustry and government over whether and how that industry will be regulated includes the removal of all lawsuits against the industry to a "commission" such as the Securities and Exchange Commission, or the Federal Communications Commission, or to binding arbitration. This de facto abolition of common law lawsuits before juries is very valuable to corporations and Mr Immelt of General Electric, for example, is happy to take his chances with the politicians he knows can be influenced as opposed to the "loose cannons" in a courtroom.

Before ethanol we had MTBE. MTBE is an "oxygenate" that was added to the gasoline by EPA edict; like ethanol it makes gasoline burn more cleanly and it was decided upon as an additive in part because of the known corrosive aspects of ethanol; MTBE, unlike ethanol, does not dissolve in water. Unlike ethanol it can be shipped by pipeline and it won't rust out steel fuel tanks and dissolve rubbers and plastics. Some parts of big oil complained but all in the end complied; the fact that the government required MTBE, they knew, would give them cover if a problem arose. . . . . well it did . . . . MTBE polluted reservoirs and ground water, especially when it was run in two stroke outboard motors that then dominated water power sports.

Enter ethanol and the unintended consequences of another well meaning but also quite corrupt government intrusion . . . . .

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

In the case of introducing a fuel additive which is known to seriously degrade fuel system components (such as fuel tanks!) it seems to me that those responsible have a clear duty of care to warn end users, that fuels with this additive are not fit for purpose when used in some specific vehicles (those with GRP tanks for instance).

But as graft, corruption, double dealing, and simple bare faced lying, are all things that are extremely familiar to governments and trans national corporations, accepting any sort of duty of care towards those adversely affected by their actions isnt likely to happen anytime soon!

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Jeandr said:

Thinking more about what the students did, it appears they did their tank in two pieces with the seam not at the bottom, but somewhere in the middle vertical walls which to me is the hardest to coat by sloshing the product in the tank, the sealer would tend to run to the bottom and possibly not adhere to the seam they were so desperatly trying to cover. To be fully effective, I think it would be best to have the cut all the way at the bottom (or better still, at the top) and let the sealer pool at the bottom (or on the top while the tank was up side down) covering the seam completely while the sealer was drying out.

It may be more of an application problem than a product problem.

Jean

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The correct way to make a chemically resistant tank is to use a proper chemically resistant resin, and follow the recommendations of its manufacturer in relation to processing. This is a whole lot easier than laying something up with inappropriate materials, and then relying on a silly untested snake oil to make it work in conjunction with E85. All bonding of parts must be done with the chemically resistant resin, and proper chemical resistant layers must also be incorporated.

Trouble here is though its very difficult to get such resins in small amounts, as shelf life is limited and generally its sold in 205kg barrels. The students involved with this project could almost certainly have obtained the necessary materials, had they had any basic understanding of what was involved in producing a composite fuel tank intended for use with alcohol bearing fuels. One wonders why any member of the faculty did not advise on the correct way to go about making the tank, as the failure must have made the university in question look rather silly?

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Ethanol damage is not limited to fiberglass tanks only, Ducati owners have filed a class action over damage to their plastic tanks. Check the linky

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Seems strange as HDPE which is what the Ducati tanks are likely to be made from, has no known solvents at room temperatures, and is what is used to make pretty much all current car and light commercial tanks.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Carbonfibre said:

Seems strange as HDPE which is what the Ducati tanks are likely to be made from, has no known solvents at room temperatures, and is what is used to make pretty much all current car and light commercial tanks.

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As I said before, it's probably time to take a class action suit to get rid of ethanol for good, after all who can you beleive now, certainly not the "experts in the field" since they are the ones who reccomended the tank material to Ducati.

Given enough time, even water will degrade anything so it is no wonder a new additive to gasoline will do unforeseen damages :!:

Jean

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Does anyone knows if this, known defect of Ethanol, applies when its in a 2 stroke mix? I have a Yankee 500Z in project and the gas tank is FB, motor is just finished and I have to start the rest of restauration; I was thinking of asking a friend of mine who beats alloy to either make me a copy in alloy or make a internal tank (a la Hurricane X75) to hide inside of the stock FB tank... next solution will be something like Jean does: cut open and work the inside out. No possibility of mistakes: parts are unfoundable!
Philippe

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

2T premix containing ethanol is less aggressive to GRP tanks than fuels for 4T motors. The best solution to this may be to take a mould from your OE tank, and arrange to have a chemically resistant exact copy made, and then line your OE tank, and keep this to use as a spare?

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

According to "The Epoxy Book" by System 3 (very useful although they're another brand of epoxy) the most common reason for epoxy failures is bad mixing. They recommend mixing in one container then transferring the contents to a second container, because the first container may have unmixed bits clinging in the corners or on the sides, and if these wind up being used on the project, that area may not harden.

Also, you're supposed to clean the gas tank with a detergent-and-water solution, then with acetone or lacquer thinner. If you don't thoroughly dry the surface after each cleaning, you could have water or acetone inside the fiberglass surface, which might prevent the epoxy from bonding properly. When I did my tank, I used a shop vac motor to blow warm air into the tank for a long time after each cleaning.

Mike Taglieri miket--nyc@juno.com

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Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Mikes suggested method of preparing a tank, seems to be saying that he doesnt understand the principle of secondary bonding at all well.

In essence any bond between resins, where one of them is fully cured and chemically inert, relies purely on mechanically abrading the surface that needs to be bonded to.

Simply degreasing a GRP tank which may well have been in use for decades and have a very thick film of oxides over the interior surfaces, will not provide the type of surface suitable for a good secondary bond.

Sadly it seems that in many cases the act of posting something on the net (which in what Mike states is almost entirely inaccurate!) makes it credible in the eyes of anyone without specific and accurate understanding of the subject being discussed, and results in even more confusion.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

I tried to scan some of the article to see what was the results.
They obviously made an "epoxy" tank from west 105. Fiberglass meerly being the inert filler. Here is waht they say about epoxy and fuel tanks.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/wood-epoxy ... uidelines/

Clearly west is noncommital that it will hold up...and you are on your own. Having talked to two marine surveyers, both have said epoxy is not currently acceptable to insurance companies as fuel tanks in the marine environment. I have no way to verify this...but I found their comments interesting. Such as, Hawaii at one time having an exemption from alcohol marine fuel.

The lining process with caswell is my only hope for the norton gas tanks I am currently making in a norton fastback and a dunstall pattern. In years past, I did them in "aqua shield" which is an upgraded polyester resin used to make gas station tanks. Now the recommendation is vinylester resin... which costs much more.... In a few weeks my tank will come out of the mold and get a caswell treatment to see if it can at all hold up.
However please note that despite the shell being polyester or vinylester, the SEAM, filler neck and front studs are epoxy glued with an epoxy that is rated for gasoline and alcohol resistance. How good, who knows?
I have no expectation that it is a cure all, but I am just so curious to see what this combination will do for the long haul with this fuel that the government is shoving down our throat....