Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank liner...

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

A ceramic-epoxy industrial sealer of the type used in the petro-chemical industry is likely to be far more effective than a product which has not been properly tested, and seems to have a pretty questionable record when it comes to working long term. I have emailed a concern who manufactures a product along these lines, but often find it takes days or weeks for any response, so will see if I can contact them by phone tomorrow.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

This week i've gotten 2 reports from BI list of Caswell coating failing, one fairly soon and another a bit over 2 yr in Calif gas. There are many dozens of Caswell coated FG and steel tanks out there but so far only sporadic failure reports. Mike was quoting from a book but IIRC he too used Caswell in FG IS tank some years ago, will double check. I'll check with Caswell on what feedback they are getting.

Best I can glean for realistic expense and sourcing, is use vinyl resin and leave or sand layer inside so rough fibers standing proud then put in thick Caswell/Novalac and when its almost set up, not sagging, but still tacky, put in another layer of Caswell. Can take over an hour of tank handling per layer.

Don't forget regardless of how well tanks stand gasohol, gasohol will settle out a water alcohol layer in bottom at some point, so don't store it long inside.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Any sort of product intended for a specific purpose such as lining a fuel tank, which has not had any sort of industry standard testing carried out on it, is perhaps something best avoided? Proper industrial sealing and coating materials have been properly tested, and are probably a lot more likely to work than something that appears to be little more than a high temperature RTM epoxy.

If you are intending to line a sectioned GRP tank and bond back together, then its worth taking note of what resin manufacturers recommend relating to chemical resistance layers, which is proven to work in real world conditions with extremely aggressive chemicals. When bonding sectioned tanks back together, its important to use a bonding paste made using whatever resin chosen for chemical resistance layer, and technical data suggesting suitable resins is easily found within manufacturers material concerning chemical resistance.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

I'm going on 7 years with a Cream coating with no sign of problems.(Steel Tk)
But After following the directions, I used an old vaccum cleaner hose and connected one end to my forced hot air heating system and the other end into the tank for 3 weeks. Every time the heat came on the tank got a good blast of hot air. ( Winter time in New England)

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Interesting Bruce, I put acetone in FG tank long enough to worry me it'd dissolve the factory resin, probe and finger felt tacky, then used hair drier in cap for over a day till whole tank rather warm and no solvent ordor before Caswell coating. Did similar to steel tank but it didn't take as long to vapor off its acetone wash.

Here French vendor with sealer a fella says has worked for him, but I can't read French after failing a couple years of it in school.
http://www.restom.net/

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

hobot said:

Interesting Bruce, I put acetone in FG tank long enough to worry me it'd dissolve the factory resin, probe and finger felt tacky, then used hair drier in cap for over a day till whole tank rather warm and no solvent ordor before Caswell coating. Did similar to steel tank but it didn't take as long to vapor off its acetone wash.

Here French vendor with sealer a fella says has worked for him, but I can't read French after failing a couple years of it in school.
http://www.restom.net/

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I sent an e-mail, I will let you know what their response.

Jean

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Ok thanks Jean let us know what the stuff is and how they tested it and suggest to apply. Caswell Novalac has the chemical tolerance the specs say, so main issue must be the bonding sealing well enough. Vinyl resin for FG is also pretty tolerant to alky - until you raise the temp to gas boiling range.

So far only 2 reports Caswell tank failures on BI list but I know there was a wave of Caswell coating done about a decade ago, so mystery why not more failures reported. There have been a hand full of uncoated tanks failure with paint to carb to engine siezures reported last few years.

I've a vintage FG front mudguard that's completely intact so thinking to cut out a couple smallish sections to test coat, yet easy repair to re finish fender if anyone ever cares to use it Squarish design so I don't care for it myself.


On a side note I was a bit pissed to see my knee grip on new paint was dulling the finish d/t the Desert Storm type fine grit layer, so was thinking to glue on rubber pads but as none exist for IS tank was letting mind wonder on alternatives and last pm if flashed to mind - pair of patent leather black spiked heel women's boots cut up and laid over tank so knees could hook under the boot soles, as long as spiked heels didn't dig in too much : )

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Yea, I really dried it out! 2 years of French, 2 years of Spanish. I can't count from 1 to 10 with out mixing them up! Cervesa I remember.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

hobot said:

Interesting Bruce, I put acetone in FG tank long enough to worry me it'd dissolve the factory resin, probe and finger felt tacky, then used hair drier in cap for over a day till whole tank rather warm and no solvent ordor before Caswell coating. Did similar to steel tank but it didn't take as long to vapor off its acetone wash.

Here French vendor with sealer a fella says has worked for him, but I can't read French after failing a couple years of it in school.
http://www.restom.net/

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Epoxy resins are not chemically compatible with polyesters, and softening the polyester with acetone before applying epoxy will mean that any sort of mechanical adhesion between the 2 resins may well be impossible. In some cases polyester resin will not cure properly if its applied over cured epoxy, and this is due to lack of compatibility. However epoxy will cure when applied over fully cured polyester without any sort of problem.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Jeandr said:

hobot said:

Interesting Bruce, I put acetone in FG tank long enough to worry me it'd dissolve the factory resin, probe and finger felt tacky, then used hair drier in cap for over a day till whole tank rather warm and no solvent ordor before Caswell coating. Did similar to steel tank but it didn't take as long to vapor off its acetone wash.

Here French vendor with sealer a fella says has worked for him, but I can't read French after failing a couple years of it in school.
http://www.restom.net/

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I sent an e-mail, I will let you know what their response.

Jean

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The reply I got was that the product was ethanol (15% and 85%) resistant, but they do not ship outside of Europe due to shipping costs. I asked a few more questions about pretreatment, I will post up what the answers were.

Jean

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Epoxy resins are not chemically compatible with polyesters, and softening the polyester with acetone before applying epoxy will mean that any sort of mechanical adhesion between the 2 resins may well be impossible. In some cases polyester resin will not cure properly if its applied over cured epoxy, and this is due to lack of compatibility. However epoxy will cure when applied over fully cured polyester without any sort of problem.

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LOL! what a term stumbling read for a dyslexic like me. Peel's tank insides were not soft-tacky nor containing significant acetone or other interfering substances by the time I got to mixing up Caswells some days later. Maybe I 'chemically' polished the surface but so far so good - I've probed tank hump for signs of softening or de-layering after the front bashing in, harder than ancient amber but softer than Bakelite. My concern was to remove any varnish / oil residue type layer.

Maybe blasting inside with a media that can be dissolved out by gas or water for some bite regardless of the sealer? Maybe I'm in state of denial w/o enough ethanol exposure to count yet. I'll run a good filter and keep eye on that and spend more, as usual, if tank seal dissolves.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

The reply I got was that the product was ethanol (15% and 85%) resistant, but they do not ship outside of Europe due to shipping costs. I asked a few more questions about pretreatment, I will post up what the answers were.

Jean[/quote]

In lab conditions most properly cured novalac epoxy resins have very high levels of chemical resistance. Problem is that the inside of a fuel tank, isnt reflective of laboratory test conditions, and this is something that those selling inappropriate products as tank sealers, never seem to mention in advertising blurb!

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Carbonfibre said:

The reply I got was that the product was ethanol (15% and 85%) resistant, but they do not ship outside of Europe due to shipping costs. I asked a few more questions about pretreatment, I will post up what the answers were.

Jean

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In lab conditions most properly cured novalac epoxy resins have very high levels of chemical resistance. Problem is that the inside of a fuel tank, isnt reflective of laboratory test conditions, and this is something that those selling inappropriate products as tank sealers, never seem to mention in advertising blurb![/quote]

OK then, who or what will I beleive in? Fiberglass coated, uncoated, epoxy or vinyl esther will not do, aluminum or steel will both be eaten too, plastic will melt... I think I will just park my bike in the living room (Hobot has already done so) and ride only my bicycles, at least sweat can be washed off.

Jean

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

I don't know, salt is corrosive. I see a whole other debate starting. Has anyone thought of having a bladder made?

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Jeandr said:

Carbonfibre said:

The reply I got was that the product was ethanol (15% and 85%) resistant, but they do not ship outside of Europe due to shipping costs. I asked a few more questions about pretreatment, I will post up what the answers were.

Jean

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In lab conditions most properly cured novalac epoxy resins have very high levels of chemical resistance. Problem is that the inside of a fuel tank, isnt reflective of laboratory test conditions, and this is something that those selling inappropriate products as tank sealers, never seem to mention in advertising blurb!

Click to expand...

OK then, who or what will I beleive in? Fiberglass coated, uncoated, epoxy or vinyl esther will not do, aluminum or steel will both be eaten too, plastic will melt... I think I will just park my bike in the living room (Hobot has already done so) and ride only my bicycles, at least sweat can be washed off.

Jean[/quote]


I have outlined in several earlier posts some ideas on how to go about lining a GRP tank, that have a reasonable chance of working long term. Problem with this subject seems to be that end users get blinded by the BS put out by sellers of so called "tank sealers",who are eager to take a slice out of a pretty lucrative market, with products that seem to be repackaged RTM type epoxies, with a 400-500% mark up added!

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Jeandr said:

OK then, who or what will I beleive in? Fiberglass coated, uncoated, epoxy or vinyl esther will not do, aluminum or steel will both be eaten too, plastic will melt... I think I will just park my bike in the living room (Hobot has already done so) and ride only my bicycles, at least sweat can be washed off.

Jean

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Stainless steel? Rotomolded nylon tank with GRP outer cover?

Seriously, did I miss something here? What is the problem with steel tanks and ethanol fuel blends? I understand the issues with GRP tanks, and maybe aluminum, although the report hobot refers to seems to say that aluminum tanks are probably ok with E10, but not higher ethanol percentages. Plenty of steel tanks out there in cars and bikes running on E10, and they seem to work ok. The only concern I can think of with E10 in steel motorcycle tanks might be the increased amount of water absorbed by the ethanol. Maybe that makes rust more of a concern? Doesn't seem like too serious a problem to me. Regular riding and keeping the tank full should keep that from being a real problem.

Aside from the GRP tanks, is it possible we're exaggerating the problems here?

Ken

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

lcrken said:

Stainless steel? Rotomolded nylon tank with GRP outer cover?

Seriously, did I miss something here? What is the problem with steel tanks and ethanol fuel blends? I understand the issues with GRP tanks, and maybe aluminum, although the report hobot refers to seems to say that aluminum tanks are probably ok with E10, but not higher ethanol percentages. Plenty of steel tanks out there in cars and bikes running on E10, and they seem to work ok. The only concern I can think of with E10 in steel motorcycle tanks might be the increased amount of water absorbed by the ethanol. Maybe that makes rust more of a concern? Doesn't seem like too serious a problem to me. Regular riding and keeping the tank full should keep that from being a real problem.

Aside from the GRP tanks, is it possible we're exaggerating the problems here?

Ken

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Some of the Nylon tanks, (Ducati, KTM), are having swelling problems, absorbing the water and deforming.

But yeah, metal tanks are easily cleaned out if the need arises and aren't likely to gum carbs, drip gas, or go soft...

Will

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Tanks of those bikes are roto moulded high density polyethylene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_polyethylene) and it seems strange that are having problems, as this material is used for pretty much every passenger car and LCV tank on the planet currently!

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Carbonfibre said:

Tanks of those bikes are roto moulded high density polyethylene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_polyethylene) and it seems strange that are having problems, as this material is used for pretty much every passenger car and LCV tank on the planet currently!

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Not necessarily all roto molded tanks, just some using a certain type of nylon. Problem seems to be with the type of nylon used and water absorption. Water being pulled out of the atmosphere and collecting in the bottom of the tank gets pulled into the nylon and swells. I believe that Ducati is aware of the problems as are KTM.
Some of the tanks have deformed and are no longer the proper dimension for mounting points. Paint problems can arise with swelling tanks. Gasket surfaces for fuel pumps have deformed and allowed fuel-tanks to empty.

Probably won't have much moisture/swelling problems on cars as they are closed fuel systems. Pretty much everyone dumps the closed system on a bike. Bikes sometimes sit with the same old gas in them,(not mine at least not without stabilizer). A swollen tank on a car is likely to never be noticed. On your 15 grand Duc or KTM where it's sitting right between your legs in front of you shedding it's paint you might notice. You might notice if you happen to do your own maintenance and have to remove said tank and it no longer fits when you go to put it back on. Moto-Hooligan makes slotted tank brackets for Superdukes to get around the "growing" problem.

Will

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

lcrken said:

Aside from the GRP tanks, is it possible we're exaggerating the problems here?

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The problem is we are running or trying to keep running 40 year old bikes which were never designed for ethanol, if the fuel tank is affected, many other parts of the fuel system could be affected too. Cars usually don't see any use beyond 8 to 10 years, after that, they are so degraded that a little leak here and there is seen as normal. When a 40 year old Norton is brought back to life, it is to all extents and purposes just like it left the factory floor, but with 40 year old "new parts" and we all know they had no idea any of the parts would be subjected to ethanol and modern fuel additives. A steel tank on a car can easily be replaced with something that fits, on a motorcycle, it is part of the design and the look so can't be replaced with ease.

So what to do :?: I will do what I think is the right thing, cut the tank open, lay some new material with vinyl ester resin, brush on a sealer while the tank is open, glue the two parts together with more material and vinyl ester resin, re-coat the insides by sloshing more sealer, let it dry through and through before filling up and try to use gas that contains no ethanol, then stop losing sleep over it :!: If the tank is affected, that's the way the cookie crumbles :cry: and I will deal with it at that time.

Jean