Ashamed to be British?

In Halifax Herald yesterday the local BLM wants W.Churchill’s extra life size belly out chin up statue removed from front of old library because he was racist .... not sure what to think or what will happen , the City removed statue of Cornwallis after First Nations promised they would remove on their own , that was over his scalp reward , any turned in were paid for .... kinda understand FN issue with that , not sure on Winston though ....
 
Craig said:
In Halifax Herald yesterday the local BLM wants W.Churchill’s extra life size belly out chin up statue removed from front of old library because he was racist .... not sure what to think or what will happen , the City removed statue of Cornwallis after First Nations promised they would remove on their own , that was over his scalp reward , any turned in were paid for .... kinda understand FN issue with that , not sure on Winston though ....
Click to expand...
wellington statue defaced yesterday in aldershot. blm. bloody joke and sick of it!
 
EstuaryBoy said:
Obviously Winston has special relevance to us in the UK, but how the rest of the world see him, who knows??
Click to expand...
without Winstons dogged attitude and bloody minded attitude. the world would be speaking german and the blacks wouldn't be around to complain. but don't let facts get in the way of a good whine!
 
freddie1105 said:
without Winstons dogged attitude and bloody minded attitude. the world would be speaking german and the blacks wouldn't be around to complain. but don't let facts get in the way of a good whine!
Click to expand...
blacks have plenty to be angry about. but aim at the right people. not your saviours
 
What I had in mind when I read the full page article , several other installations through out City have been targeted .... guess history open for interpretation now a days ....
 
Well here’s one take on human history...

Since humans started forming tribes they have developed into some very advanced, and some less so, civilisations all around the world.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the ones we know of were institutionally racists, and worse, they institutionalised slavery. Ever since the first tribes waged war on each other ‘to the victor the spoils’ prevailed, inc the taking of the vanquished tribes food, materials and... people, against their will.

Even civilisations that produced great thinkers, the ancient Greeks, the Romans, all built their empires on slavery without managing to see it as fundamentally wrong.

This dreadful trend continued right up until the white European area, where naval power allowed them free reign. Also, about that time, agriculture was turning into a big output / big money industry, and needed labour. And so started the white on black slave era. Just as dreadful as any before it.

But, then something (gradually) started to change, the white Europeans eventually realised the wrong in this. And, perhaps for the first time in human history, actually decreed it wrong, and immoral, and illegal. And built this into what we would now recognise as our fundamental human rights.

So, I propose this very different, and rather unfashionable view of history that it was actually 18th/19th century white Europeans who brought about an end to slavery that had been institutionalised and unchallenged in all prior human history. Which when you think about it, is a rather impressive achievement!

Does that mean racism ended then, or has ended now? NO.

Does it mean we need to do nothing? NO.

But, IMHO, the way to do something is to remain focused on the real issues, and keep making progress, keep moving forward AND to keep looking back honestly to remind ourselves how far we have come.
 
Last edited:
Fast Eddie said:
Well here’s one take on human history...

Since humans started forming tribes they have developed into some very advanced, and some less so, civilisations all around the world.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the ones we know of were institutionally racists, and worse, they institutionalised slavery. Ever since the first tribes waged war on each other ‘to the victor the spoils’ prevailed, inc the taking of the vanquished tribes food, materials and... people, against their will.

Even civilisations that produced great thinkers, the ancient Greeks, the Romans, all built their empires on slavery without managing to see it as fundamentally wrong.

This dreadful trend continued right up until the white European area, where naval power allowed them free reign. Also, about that time, agriculture was turning into a big output / big money industry, and needed labour. And so started the white on black slave era. Just as dreadful as any before it.

But, then something (gradually) started to change, the white Europeans eventually realised the wrong in this. And, perhaps for the first time in human history, actually decreed it wrong, and immoral, and illegal. And built this into what we would now recognise as our fundamental human rights.

So, I propose this very different, and rather unfashionable view of history that it was actually 18th/19th century white Europeans who brought about an end to slavery that had been institutionalised and unchallenged in all prior human history. Which when you think about it, is a rather impressive achievement!

Does that mean racism ended then, or has ended now? NO.

Does it mean we need to do nothing? NO.

But, IMHO, the way to do something is to remain focused on the real issues, and keep making progress, keep moving forward AND to keep looking back honestly to remind ourselves how far we have come.
Click to expand...

An interesting post Nigel.. What I struggle with , is the notion that all white Brits were somehow implicated in slavery. It would not be beyond woke wit to look at the records of those who were compensated for their loss of (human) capital. Almost certainly an eye watering amount, but paid surely to a comparatively small percentage of the populace who have some how succeeded in socialising their responsibility.. Little changes where the ruling classes are concerned. One has to ask whether or not these payments eased the way for a seed change in attitude. amongst those who control and indeed create public opinion.

BLM is not surely a demand for a historical righting of a wrong ,and a demand for belated compensation, but a response to everyday life and incidents. Obviously you do not have to be Black to get turned over by old bill.. its happened to me on a number of occaisons ,in middle age i might add, and for no reason and the police were frankly obnoxious and provocative. Yet ,any one can have a bad day,including patrolling police, which was what I put these incidents down to, but if it was happening 2 or 3 or more times a week then that gets harder , and it must becomes very easy to overlook the very real progress that has been made.

What complicates the politics of ethnicity in the uk ,is that the middle classes though vociferous in proclaiming their 'anti racism ' are primarily interested in virtue signalling , they rarely seem to have BAME friends and one wonders quite how far they are prepared to press their wokeness. Would they be prepared topress the case for a refund from the descendents of those who receieved compensation for loss of their slaves? Certainly the money would come in handy in paying for covid .
 
Last edited:
Not quite sure I go along with some of the last paragraph... Most adults will make friends through workplace or common interests, as I've pointed out to our US friends, Smalltown UK didn't see many foreigners until comparatively recently. My village had NO black people when I was a child, none at secondary school, and in 46 years of full time employment I have only ever worked with one black person.. Different for others I am sure, but just a snapshot of how it can be. But I've met enough white *rseh*les to be open on colour..
Different for the next generation of course....
 
oldmikew said:
An interesting post Nigel.. What I struggle with , is the notion that all white Brits were somehow implicated in slavery. It would not be beyond woke wit to look at the records of those who were compensated for their loss of (human) capital. Almost certainly an eye watering amount, but paid surely to a comparatively small percentage of the populace who have some how succeeded in socialising their responsibility.. Little changes where the ruling classes are concerned. One has to ask whether or not these payments eased the way for a seed change in attitude. amongst those who control and indeed create public opinion.

BLM is not surely a demand for a historical righting of a wrong ,and a demand for belated compensation, but a response to everyday life and incidents. Obviously you do not have to be Black to get turned over by old bill.. its happened to me on a number of occaisons ,in middle age i might add, and for no reason and the police were frankly obnoxious and provocative. Yet ,any one can have a bad day,including patrolling police, which was what I put these incidents down to, but if it was happening 2 or 3 or more times a week then that gets harder , and it must becomes very easy to overlook the very real progress that has been made.

What complicates the politics of ethnicity in the uk ,is that the middle classes though vociferous in proclaiming their 'anti racism ' are primarily interested in virtue signalling , they rarely seem to have BAME friends and one wonders quite how far they are prepared to press their wokeness. Would they be prepared topress the case for a refund from the descendents of those who receieved compensation for loss of their slaves? Certainly the money would come in handy in paying for covid .
Click to expand...

I think a refund 200 years after the event might be a tad problematic, but other than that I agree with your points.

I just wish ALL sides would focus on the here and now and on getting shit fixed...!
 
I heard a spot on the radio the other day about an initiative here in NY to send "integration ambassadors" to small towns in upstate New York to "teach communities how to be more welcoming and inclusive towards new, non-white residents".

Talk about implications....

When asked if she herself would consider moving to one of these communities the spokesperson for the initiative answered with an emphatic "no". I don't imagine many of her friends would consider a move either, and not because of the perceived racism...
 
Removing statues and slamming achievements might garner support for any fascist cause. If you destroy history, tomorrow starts today with a clean slate and you can do anything. Churchill should be recognised for both his achievements and his cynicism. Nobody can claim that Churchill did not want to use armoured cars with machine guns against the miners. But he also saved Britain during WW2.
 
What protestors do when they pull down or deface statues is no different from the Nazis burning books. In Australia, the protestors are anti Captain Cook - I am certain most of them have never reads about his three expeditions to the Pacific. He was the poor boy who made good, but was never good enough for his father. On his third trip, he fell out of his tree. You cannot condemn someone for going insane and doing doing some horrendous things. When he tried it on in Hawaii, he was carved up while he was still alive. So what does destroying his statue really achieve ?
 
Last edited:
Just a few statistics (from Wiki) that might help our friends overseas realise where some of us are coming from over here. Population densities per square kilometre:
Australia: 3
Canada: 4
New Zealand: 19
United States: 34
United Kingdom: 280
Official figures from 2018 (all above are 2020) suggest 14% of UK population were not born here, which gives:
Non Indigenous UK Density: 39
Not including estimated 1.2 million 'illegal'
 
Last edited:
EstuaryBoy said:
Just a few statistics (from Wiki) that might help our friends overseas realise where some of us are coming from over here. Population densities per square kilometre:
Australia: 3
Canada: 4
New Zealand: 19
United States: 34
United Kingdom: 280
Official figures from 2018 (all above are 2020) suggest 14% of UK population were not born here, which gives:
Non Indigenous UK Density: 39
Not including estimated 1.2 million 'illegal'
Click to expand...
About the same as Germany
 
Back
Top