Another Kegler S/Arm Mod Thread

[swooshdave]

Factory parts? Genuine parts? Patern parts? Near by a NEW firm with muti-million pound investment produce's Bentley Car parts, i wonder if the packets say " Genuine Bentley" ? When Norton "stopped" producing bikes and old stock was used up...That was the end of "Genuine parts" all the rest from then on are pattern. Fullauto doe's not claim to produce "Genuine head's" even with their skill :!:

Haven't we had this discuss before? I don't think you realize what Andover Norton is.

It's a pattern part when you take a part and make a copy of it. At that point you do not know production tolerances or materials (unless you guess right).

With Andover Norton parts they are going from the actual parts diagrams and specs (updated as needed to modern equivalents). Thus the only parts being made to the Factory specifications.

Do you now understand the difference?

 

[L.A.B.]

The English legal system is not known for its efficiency or for its quest for the truth, but seems to favour people who have loads of time and money to prolong a legal battle until the other side gives up.

ZFD,
I certainly agree that legal action should be avoided as far as possible-as it usually benefits no-one but the lawyers-(not that the English legal system has the monopoly on that), however I don't see that resorting to legal action is likely to be necessary.

I have the long-term strategy- that is bearing fruit already- to reduce the market share of the pirates.

Well, I hope so, and that AN's long-term strategy isn't too long-term because from what you've said so far, it seems to suggest AN is still somewhat reluctant to take active steps to [Edit]catch the culprits in the act, as I suspect you already know who they are, but prefer sit back and wait for the evidence to drop into AN's lap.

 

[john robert bould]

Well i started in engineering before Commandos where even thought of..43 years later still making parts.."genuine lansdowne-Dampers" and the only one on the planet...so far :lol:

 

[L.A.B.]

It's a pattern part when you take a part and make a copy of it. At that point you do not know production tolerances or materials (unless you guess right).

With Andover Norton parts they are going from the actual parts diagrams and specs (updated as needed to modern equivalents). Thus the only parts being made to the Factory specifications.

I think it is about time this "Genuine Factory" description was dropped by those who use it, including AN, as it is misleading.

 

[swooshdave]

It's a pattern part when you take a part and make a copy of it. At that point you do not know production tolerances or materials (unless you guess right).

With Andover Norton parts they are going from the actual parts diagrams and specs (updated as needed to modern equivalents). Thus the only parts being made to the Factory specifications.

I think it is about time this "Genuine Factory" description was dropped by those who use it, including AN, as it is misleading.

I'd ask you to support that statement.

 

[L.A.B.]

It's a pattern part when you take a part and make a copy of it. At that point you do not know production tolerances or materials (unless you guess right).

With Andover Norton parts they are going from the actual parts diagrams and specs (updated as needed to modern equivalents). Thus the only parts being made to the Factory specifications.

I think it is about time this "Genuine Factory" description was dropped by those who use it, including AN, as it is misleading.

I'd ask you to support that statement.

Even if these so-called "Genuine Factory" parts are made to the original "factory" drawings and specifications I do believe it is stretching the truth a little too far to refer to them as: "Genuine Norton factory parts", after all, what's wrong with: "Genuine Andover Norton parts" even if those parts emanate from a converted cattle shed in deepest Hungerford and not Andover?

Genuine Norton Factory parts of course now come from the Norton factory in Donington.

 

[pete.v]

Sorry to help turn this topic into something else but....
I think NOS is another misleading term. If it's truly NOS it's 40 years old. There can't be too many 40 year old items that can be worth a darn. If not truly NOS (much more common) than it's just re-manufactured by who know what.

 

[DogT]

As consumers, it's really hard to tell since we are not privy to the ins and outs of the business. That said, I've bought parts from many vendors, and all in all, I think the only one I was dis-satisfied with was the header pipes I got from Xanders many years ago. The upper pipe is too short and leaves the notch in the silencer open to the air. And the gaskets I got from DomiRacer. I'm not afraid of using names. I've also gotten some parts that surprised me, like the clutch perch I think from British Only in Michigan. It appeared to be NOS, still had cosmoline on it and was an exact reproduction or NOS part, it exactly matched the original I had, casting marks and all, and the price was very acceptable. I think this forum does a decent job of sorting the vendors, and I can even say when I call DomiRacer about parts, at least they tell me if they are pattern or not, usually are, I asked about the tank cap and they suggested I may not be satisfied with the reproduction part. About all I can do is ask and hope they are truthful, but will find out soon enough.

I did have an issue with Marshall Hagey in Chicago once, but the Chicago Attorney General took care of that and my credit card was credited after about a year.

Dave
69S

 

[jeffdavison]

so.... O.P....... How's that Kegler mod coming along?


JD

 

[john robert bould]

It's a pattern part when you take a part and make a copy of it. At that point you do not know production tolerances or materials (unless you guess right).

With Andover Norton parts they are going from the actual parts diagrams and specs (updated as needed to modern equivalents). Thus the only parts being made to the Factory specifications.

I think it is about time this "Genuine Factory" description was dropped by those who use it, including AN, as it is misleading.

Total agreement LAB! ...all parts should be labled ...Replacement Part,

 

[ZFD]

LAB,
Whatever you call them I am convinced we make the real stuff, not copies of copies with no idea what things should be made off or what tolerances and finishes made to. I inherited the description "Genuine Norton Factory Parts" and the label design.

By your definition Norton parts were no "Factory parts", when they were sold by Andover Norton between 1975 and 1982, then magically became "Norton Factory Parts" between 1982 and 1991 when the stores were back in the then Norton Motors abode in Shenstone, and miraculously ceased to be "Factory Parts" from 1991 on when Andover Norton re-aquired the spares stock and manufacture? This with the same buyers, tooling and drawings used all the time? Slightly childish point of view, wouldn't you agree?

The fact we are now in a converted horse stable and a converted barn in Hungerford does not satisfy you? I am sure you will be far more satisfied from this summer on, when we will be back in an industrial unit in Andover, not far from the premises Andover Norton occupied before it moved to Southampton and later Hungerford! Makes no difference to the parts quality, though, cause they aren't being produced on the premises anyway.

Whether the tin shed in Donington is "the Norton Factory" could be questioned by various criteria. And whether parts and bikes of a totally different specification with no access and ties to any historical tooling and drawings should be called "Genuine Factory Parts" as opposed to ours. which are, I do question seriously.

Now I am all for hot tips from outsiders, so please let me know what I can do about others selling stuff "for Norton motorcycles", as long as they do not use our labels? And yes, I am VERY conversant with TM law, having owned and been involved in the Norton and BSA trademarks for over a decade of my life.

Andover Norton does not own the Norton trademark, so can not go against mis-use of it. Norton Motors Ltd and Andover Norton did allow the registration of various misleading trademarks by third parties in the dim and distant past, in times when I had no say in things. These were mistakes made by weak management at the time that can not, now, be undone.

Eagerly awaiting your productive ideas how I can prove cheating by the culprits without doubt, preferrably by PM,

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton

 

[L.A.B.]

LAB,
Whatever you call them I am convinced we make the real stuff, not copies of copies with no idea what things should be made off or what tolerances and finishes made to. I inherited the description "Genuine Norton Factory Parts" and the label design.

High time for a change? The term "Genuine factory parts " is misleading, and what is wrong with "Genuine Andover Norton Parts" that is at least accurate, but note that is my opinion and wouldn't necessarily expect others to agree.

By your definition Norton parts were no "Factory parts", when they were sold by Andover Norton between 1975 and 1982, then magically became "Norton Factory Parts" between 1982 and 1991 when the stores were back in the then Norton Motors abode in Shenstone, and miraculously ceased to be "Factory Parts" from 1991 on when Andover Norton re-aquired the spares stock and manufacture? This with the same buyers, tooling and drawings used all the time? Slightly childish point of view, wouldn't you agree?

No I don't, and what occurred at AN before your tenure is not at issue and is basically irrelevant in my opinion.

The fact we are now in a converted horse stable and a converted barn in Hungerford does not satisfy you? I am sure you will be far more satisfied from this summer on, when we will be back in an industrial unit in Andover, not far from the premises Andover Norton occupied before it moved to Southampton and later Hungerford! Makes no difference to the parts quality, though, cause they aren't being produced on the premises anyway.

AN going back to Andover doesn't change anything, again, my opinion.

Andover Norton does not own the Norton trademark, so can not go against mis-use of it. Norton Motors Ltd and Andover Norton did allow the registration of various misleading trademarks by third parties in the dim and distant past, in times when I had no say in things. These were mistakes made by weak management at the time that can not, now, be undone.

All very unfortunate for AN, however I don't see that misuse of the "Norton" trademark is the issue here?

 

[ZFD]

LAB,
Yes, the Norton TM is the issue.

As is my hands are tied unless somebody sticks an Andover Norton label on a part that isn't ours.

If he calls it a "spare part for Norton" (covered by EU TM law even for the sh***iest Indian Child Labour imitation), a "Genuine Commando spare part" (whatever that is) a "Genuine Norvil part" (ditto), or even a "Norton" part, calculating on the non-existant policing by the current TM owners, I can do absolutely nothing about it.

what occurred at AN before your tenure is not at issue and is basically irrelevant in my opinion.

Your opinion is not one I can win a legal battle with. In court only the legal history counts, and that has been muddled up before my tenure.

So what is your clever plan? I am still waiting!

 

[L.A.B.]

Yes, the Norton TM is the issue.

I hate to say so again, but I don't believe it is.

As is my hands are tied unless somebody sticks an Andover Norton label on a part that isn't ours.

Yes, and I believe AN basically knows who they are, and I'm sure AN could identify any such trader who may be passing off inferior items as Genuine ANDOVER Norton parts if AN wanted to, and without going to a lot of trouble, but the underlying impression I keep getting from you is that AN appears reluctant to do very much to stop it.

If he calls it a "spare part for Norton" (covered by EU TM law even for the sh***iest Indian Child Labour imitation), a "Genuine Commando spare part" (whatever that is) a "Genuine Norvil part" (ditto), or even a "Norton" part, calculating on the non-existant policing by the current TM owners, I can do absolutely nothing about it.

As I said previously if "He" is legally entitled to sell parts as "Genuine Commando" or "Genuine Norvil" that's fair(!) enough, and no argument with that, the fact that "He" also uses the term "Factory" is just as misleading as AN's use of it (again, my own opinion, and I think we have just about exhausted that "genuine factory" argument now).

So what is your clever plan? I am still waiting!

With that attitude, you will have to wait a long time!

 

[Brooking 850]

My question to all the above would be,'So who makes the best quality spare parts these days?' (Doesn't mater if thay arte badged Genuine or any other name.As we are a long way from manufacturers and bulk supply here in New Zealand, we are at the mercy of vendors who could, and I use this word cautiiously, could be palming off not so good quality spares in different packing.
As there are far more experts on the subject in this forum , can any of you answer my above question?
Luckily I was bought up with Brit bikes and especially Nortons in the 70's so have a fair idea of a good quality part as opposed to a not so good quality one.
Love spending hours riding my Norton!!!
Regards Mike

 

[Hobot]

Its a treasure hunt with a main camp on this forum for clues to dig into. British Spares in NZ sold me a bunch of stuff back when the exchange rates helped me. Still run their 'new' Amals, but with anodized slides now the factory kind eaten up. They refused to sell me chrome slides by warning me off the failures, so they ate the cost of that bad idea item in their stock. Bad parts and bad communication for ordering and repair likely preserved the barn finds we can now source parts with ease by shopping the whole world, if not making up the part special yourself .

 

[DogT]

Mike at Walridge refused to sell me the chrome slides, but he said he didn't stock, not that they were bad. But since I've learned that the chrome flakes.

Dave
69S