Amal Premier ( brand new) issue SOOTY and Cold!

daveparry said:

As it's new maybe there's a manufacturing fault with it Kara, pehaps a drilling not clear or similar?

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This is NOT a new phenomenon, I brought a new pair of 32mm Amals way back in 1972 and could not get one cylinder to run right, there was a press release in the m/c press that Amal had screwed this up. I brought another new carb body, swapped everything over and problem solved.

This is all making me very nervous about getting a pair of Premier's. Other than setting the float level, I would expect new carbs to be flawless. Why is that not the case?

maylar said:

This is all making me very nervous about getting a pair of Premier's. Other than setting the float level, I would expect new carbs to be flawless. Why is that not the case?

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What you don’t hear is the hundreds of people who put them on and never have a problem.

swooshdave said:

What you don’t hear is the hundreds of people who put them on and never have a problem.

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I hope that's true. But consider some poor bloke who's been chasing an elusive carb problem and finally says, "fugget" and spends good money on a new set of carbs only to find a new set of problems. And as for hundreds, I dunno how many of our members have bought Premier's but we seem to have more than our share of issues being reported. But I suppose one could say the same for any mass produced component that we choose to attach to our Nortons.

maylar said:

I hope that's true. But consider some poor bloke who's been chasing an elusive carb problem and finally says, "fugget" and spends good money on a new set of carbs only to find a new set of problems. And as for hundreds, I dunno how many of our members have bought Premier's but we seem to have more than our share of issues being reported. But I suppose one could say the same for any mass produced component that we choose to attach to our Nortons.

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Your last sentence sums it all up really. Mikuni or Keihins are generally produced to a very high quality, but chances are you’ll have to fine tune the jetting, and they’re more fussy (cos they’re more precise instruments) than Amal’s.

The Wassell carbs are no better than Amal’s (from what I hear, I’ve no personal experience) and the Chinese knock off flat slides I’ve seen I wouldn’t even trust on my lawnmower... and that’s electric...!

Finally, IMHO, NOS Amals should be avoided at all costs. Why are they NOS? Why weren’t they sold back in the day? Is it because they were part of a faulty batch that should have been scrapped ??

So... although they ain’t perfect, your best chance of easy success is new Premiers.

If you clean and check them as others have said, you’ll increase your chances further still.

If you ensure they come with #19 pilots you guarantee saving yourself a load of hassle.

And if you consult the wise folks on this forum with any remaining issues, you will quickly be able to ascertain if the carbs are not right, and then send ‘em back. For this reason, IMHO, it pays to buy from a local re-seller, otherwise returning etc could turn into a real (and costly) PITA.

maylar said:

This is all making me very nervous about getting a pair of Premier's. Other than setting the float level, I would expect new carbs to be flawless. Why is that not the case?

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In my 932's I put in new floats, jets, needles, slides and madass synch adaptor. Lots of bugs to deal with. Needed the right insulating blocks for the manifolds, needed better sealing around the connections.
I gained a lot of insight into the Amal configuration.
It ran a lot better but still sub-par.
I sent them out for a sleeve job as read and recommended on this forum.

After the sleeve job it was like a different engine. Now it runs like a banshee and idles smoothly where I set it, 900 to 1K.

Not saying new carbs were the wrong way to go, I was just determined (stubborn) I could get it right running the original pair...and I might still be working on them if not for all the info shared on this site.

Hi Everybody,
(1) I have read your replies on the Amal Premiere problem and can summarize here: I swapped ignition left for right and the dry sooty weak performance remained on the right. Tried different plugs. The idle and overall performance was shitty, cold exhaust pipe. Engine is together mechanically.
(2) Put my old original Amal 932 on the right and BINGO have decent idle, quick warmup of exhaust , strong pulse out the tailpipe and no dry sooty plug. Bike runs decently.
(3) What can be said is that the right side Premiere was the problem within any conceivable normal adjustment .
(4) I see these possibilities in the Right Premiere: 1) Although the float was set to be .080" below bowl lip, this may be too high--although no fuel came out tickler unless depressed . 2) There may be swarf in the carb that I could not see and did not dislodge with solvent and air. 3) The "normal" air screw position for this particular carb might be 3 or 4 turns out. 4) This particular carb is defective.
Thanks to all.
Kara

Let's make a note...How many people had problems with JUST the RIGHTSIDE Premier CARB? That was me less than a month ago. Seems like everyone else, too.

I have been reading about "swarf" along with other bugs in new Premieres since I joined AN, and other sites as well.

Its total BS you fork out your hard earned bucks for a new carb and then have to jump through hoops to figure out whats wrong with the engine now since you just installed NEW carbs.
Should not the manufacturer work as hard to offer a quality product as you did to for the money to purchase it?

Well, I'm one of the folks who took the new Premiers out of the box, checked the float levels - which were fine - installed them and never had a minute's trouble with them.

I've had a commando with amals (sleeved) for 40 years. I fear no amals. Nor their clones

Assemble both premiers how ever you do it, mount them both on their manifolds. don't connect the fuel lines yet.

So, now they are mounted on the manifold with the throttle cables connected. Remove the bowls, then remove the jets.

What you should see in the absense of the bowls and jets is both needles hanging down. Are they pertruding evenly?? They should be.

Next, you twist the throttle slowly to lift the inner carb bodies observing that the needles rise and fall together smoothly. Yes, you are in amal junior high testing the most mundane things that people assume work. If one hangs up, you could have found your problem.

If everything went up and down in a synchronized manner, then assemble the jets and re-mount the bowls being careful not to overtighten the bowl screws. There's still a chance that a float is sticking but usually that means either the bleeder won't stop overflowing or the cylinder is getting NO fuel. The first case obviously points to the problem, and the second case (fuel starvation) can be tested easily by using a squirt bottle to squirt fuel into the open intake.

*A very big problem is defective carbs. They make carb experts seem like they are idiots. As was said previously, many people have bought and mounted premiers successfully, and others have had unsolvable problems, that can be perceived as "rookie ignorance". At some point, you have to forget about the bike being a "finicky norton" and think about the basics. Air, fuel, ignition timing, compression. Then design tests to confirm their status. (Things like my squirt bottle test are generic. I use it on cars, lawnmowers, weed wackers, and my norton...) Unfortunately, if your carb is defective, all the testing in the world is futile, and at some point you have no choice but to "move on".

Tinkerbell said:

(3) What can be said is that the right side Premiere was the problem within any conceivable normal adjustment .

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+1 Excellent...

Not sure how many folks can from memory dictate the complete idle fuel and air path of travel within the carb and how they interact with each other.
Then step 2 is to repeat complete fuel and air paths and interaction for the high speed circuit.

I can only state as I find, i fitted premiers to mine straight out the box and they work perfectly.
In saying that RGM jetted them for me prior to despatch

I have a new right hand premier giving me a problem.

About a year ago I fitted a pair of new premier's to my 850 Mk11. Sold in the same box as a matched pair.

I inspected them first and found a 260 main jet in one and a 200 main jet in the other. I also found 17 pilots which I changed to 19. I also cleaned all passages and blew air through them. I checked fuel levels and corrected the right hand side one which was very low.

The carbs perform very well now and hold a steady idle.

However the bike is still very difficult to warm up and will not run evenly for 2 or 3 minutes. I tried a larger pilot. A 3 slide instead of the 3.5 and raised the needle. I refitted the choke and now use the choke when starting. The manifold gaskets all seem ok.

I haven't solved the warm up issue yet and the bike will often run on one cylinder until it is warm. It is the left side that is dropping out.

Once the engine is warm it performs perfectly.

As I write this it occurs to me I should recheck the fuel levels again and also recheck for leaks in the manifold. Perhaps once it warns up any leak is closed.

FWIW, I installed brand new needles and needle jets and my bike ran terrible. Turns out the needles were no good. Got them directly from AMAL. Maybe Tinkerbell should try the Premiere body. Then install the old slide, needle, needle jet, bowl and float from the old carb. If that works gradually install the newer parts until the problem resurfaces. If it doesn’t work the problem is in the new body.

Lineslinger said:

I have been reading about "swarf" along with other bugs in new Premieres since I joined AN, and other sites as well.

Its total BS you fork out your hard earned bucks for a new carb and then have to jump through hoops to figure out whats wrong with the engine now since you just installed NEW carbs.
Should not the manufacturer work as hard to offer a quality product as you did to for the money to purchase it?

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Either put on a Mikuni or deal with the vagarities of Amal carburetors. It's not that hard to tear them down out of the box and clean them up.
Oh! Shit can the #17 pilot screw and put in a "19.

Some of you guys are missing the point. The old carb worked fine, so the problem is in the carb or its installation. Also, there is a left and a right carb for a reason.

If you can, send the bloody thing back and have it replaced with one that works, I would suggest doing so. I am sure your reputable supplier will come to the party.
If the supplier doesnt want to do that, ask for you money back, tell them to come and pick the carbs up and tell us who the supplier is. Let them know their name is on the line if they do not cooperate. Shit product is never acceptable.

Dereck

I agree with Dereck, if a user has done a reasonable job of irradiating all other possibilities, and the new carb is the primary suspect, it should definitely be returned.

Seems to me that people are fixing all the problems themselves, and even spending more money on new jets etc to fix them.

This means that the feedback, and the pain, is not getting back to the manufacturer. So it won’t be addressed and changed... If folk send them back, this gives that feedback and puts the pain and the cost on the manufacturer, providing ‘motivation’ to improve.

A caveat to the above point is doing a ‘reasonable job’ of the fault finding... If you bought new carbs to cure poor running... and your bike still runs poor with new carbs... maybe it ain’t the carbs...

Is there more than one "supplier" of Premiers? I don't recall now where I purchased mine a couple of years ago but wondering if there could be a difference in the 'setup' of the carbs from different (if there are different) suppliers. Why would some be perfect out of the box and others not? I guess it could be related to that old bit of wisdom - don't buy a car [or whatever] made on a Monday or a Friday! Maybe the bad carbs are the Monday/Friday carbs!