961 is back !

Stephen_Spencer said:
I’m confused that you’re confused CG - who will buy them? More people like those on this forum (us) I suspect and any other group, demographic, region, country or collector (etc) that Norton can attract.

Is the Birmingham 961 not everything that we love about this machine, minus the stuff we don’t? We all loved the 961 or we wouldn’t have bought it (given the price point) and we all (at one time or another) have hated its technical shortcomings. Remove the shortcomings and what are you left with?

A drop dead gorgeous, unique and pretty authentic vintage/heritage ride with modern suspension and electrics - ‘it does what it says on the can’ pretty bloody well. It isn’t pretending to be a pure sports bike by way of performance or to be anything that it’s not. There’s nothing else on the marked like it - stand it next to a comparable Triumph (I have) and it becomes easier to see where the monetary difference (and authenticity) lies.

Add in the ‘Norton (marque) factor’ and I’m sure they’ll sell. Enough? Only time will tell and only Norton will know.

My opinion only.
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You have made my point. You have a narrow audience plus an even more narrow buyer. Do you think an underpowered Porsche would sell just because it "looks nice" and pays homage to its heritage? That's not what sells Porsches.

And keep in mind I like them and agree they have great styling, and we service them before thinking I am being negative

"modern suspension and electrics" If you think the electrical system is modern, then you must be using candles at home. They are using bulbs instead of LED, they claim a 300-watt charging system(not so much), and the intake is prehistoric, as is the ECU. Who uses a full-size fuse when so many other options are available and can save space along with protecting more components? Soldering diodes inline is weak. Wiring size and type are substandard. Ground points need to be better. The battery is subjected to heat and venting issues along with cable management issues that could have been addressed with better lugs and wiring. Power distribution is all over the place. Fuses one place and then in another. A main fuse should be an inline or a resettable breaker type. The starter wiring is horrible because it's based on the Harley starter. A larger kv starter should be installed.

Suspension. Front flex and rear have some travel limitations. You can throw Ohlins on any motorcycle, but that doesn't make it "better" unless it is matched to the rider's weight and bike geometry. Do you think those Ohlins are good? Try having someone who knows how to tune them and then ride The suspension is worthless for heavier riders, and woefully inadequate brakes, the rear brake especially.

Spring Rate = Rider Weight (Including riding gear) Ohilns has a rather wide spread, so unless you are in that category with gear and most had 8.5 installed. We have changed both the front and rear springs on a few. Makes a world of difference.

That's not even everything on those subjects, just what I could think of while typing.

This is not a collector motorcycle. I know many collectors and even true Norton collectors and this and the previous ones haven't made it into their collections. Why is that? It's not money... Not one in Leno's collection, and he's a big fan. Just ask anyone who sees him at our local Hansen Dam rally each year. What other collection or motorcycle museum has this bike made it into?


And anyone after riding a Triumph Thruxton with the Arrow exhaust and adjustable tuning would gladly buy that over a Norton. Plus, you actually get what you paid for. plus plus...you have over 80 "factory" accessories, not to mention the aftermarket for it.

And nothing on the market? Ducati Monster, Thruxton, Street Triple, KTM Duke. so many others even in the 600cc range out perform a 961

Even the BMW G 310 R that TVS is making is a "better" motorcycle.




​

 
City Garage said:
You have made my point. You have a narrow audience plus an even more narrow buyer. Do you think an underpowered Porsche would sell just because it "looks nice" and pays homage to its heritage? That's not what sells Porsches.

And keep in mind I like them and agree they have great styling, and we service them before thinking I am being negative

"modern suspension and electrics" If you think the electrical system is modern, then you must be using candles at home. They are using bulbs instead of LED, they claim a 300-watt charging system(not so much), and the intake is prehistoric, as is the ECU. Who uses a full-size fuse when so many other options are available and can save space along with protecting more components? Soldering diodes inline is weak. Wiring size and type are substandard. Ground points need to be better. The battery is subjected to heat and venting issues along with cable management issues that could have been addressed with better lugs and wiring. Power distribution is all over the place. Fuses one place and then in another. A main fuse should be an inline or a resettable breaker type. The starter wiring is horrible because it's based on the Harley starter. A larger kv starter should be installed.

Suspension. Front flex and rear have some travel limitations. You can throw Ohlins on any motorcycle, but that doesn't make it "better" unless it is matched to the rider's weight and bike geometry. Do you think those Ohlins are good? Try having someone who knows how to tune them and then ride The suspension is worthless for heavier riders, and woefully inadequate brakes, the rear brake especially.

Spring Rate = Rider Weight (Including riding gear) Ohilns has a rather wide spread, so unless you are in that category with gear and most had 8.5 installed. We have changed both the front and rear springs on a few. Makes a world of difference.

That's not even everything on those subjects, just what I could think of while typing.

This is not a collector motorcycle. I know many collectors and even true Norton collectors and this and the previous ones haven't made it into their collections. Why is that? It's not money... Not one in Leno's collection, and he's a big fan. Just ask anyone who sees him at our local Hansen Dam rally each year. What other collection or motorcycle museum has this bike made it into?


And anyone after riding a Triumph Thruxton with the Arrow exhaust and adjustable tuning would gladly buy that over a Norton. Plus, you actually get what you paid for. plus plus...you have over 80 "factory" accessories, not to mention the aftermarket for it.

And nothing on the market? Ducati Monster, Thruxton, Street Triple, KTM Duke. so many others even in the 600cc range out perform a 961

Even the BMW G 310 R that TVS is making is a "better" motorcycle.




​

Click to expand...
Mmmmm! Not sure I did make your point CG - virtually the opposite in fact;)! I think we’ve had this discussion before.

Bikers looking at a Norton 961 are not looking for a Porche (the fastest and best handling) as I said above. Nor does the 961 pretend to be so. A prospective buyer of an air-cooled, push rod, 2 valves per cylinder, parallel twin Is not buying it for reasons of outright performance. At all.

Along with aesthetics, exclusivity and for some the marque, it will be the authentic, visceral nature of the ride that the 961’s configuration provides that attracts them. Often I guess reproducing the experiences they had in their youth. Dare I say, an engaging experience of man and machine rather than man and appliance - maybe? Our guy probably doesn’t want, or maybe even need adjustable tuning, rider modes and infinite tech. The bikes you list are ‘better’? They may be better performing, if our buyer were looking solely at performance.

Ironically, the monumental success of the likes of Triumph (long may it continue) and Ducati could be a bit of an advantage to a premium, hand built, low volume manufacturer (as Norton is currently). Bikers are individualistic by nature - Triumph (& Ducati) know this hence the 80 accesories you mention. But they have become so ubiquitous, there is very little an owner can do to his/her beloved steed that is ever gonna make it stand out in a crowded bikers haunt full of the same machines.

I mention ‘modern’ suspension and electrics in the context of describing the authenticity of the 961’s ride, in comparison to vintage parallel twins, but without their poor suspension and electrics.
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Mmmmm! Not sure I did make your point CG - virtually the opposite in fact;)! I think we’ve had this discussion before.

Bikers looking at a Norton 961 are not looking for a Porche (the fastest and best handling) as I said above. Nor does the 961 pretend to be so. A prospective buyer of an air-cooled, push rod, 2 valves per cylinder, parallel twin Is not buying it for reasons of outright performance. At all.

Along with aesthetics, exclusivity and for some the marque, it will be the authentic, visceral nature of the ride that the 961’s configuration provides that attracts them. Often I guess reproducing the experiences they had in their youth. Dare I say, an engaging experience of man and machine rather than man and appliance - maybe? Our guy probably doesn’t want, or maybe even need adjustable tuning, rider modes and infinite tech. The bikes you list are ‘better’? They may be better performing, if our buyer were looking solely at performance.

Ironically, the monumental success of the likes of Triumph (long may it continue) and Ducati could be seen as a bit of an advantage to a premium, hand built, low volume manufacturer (as Norton is currently). Bikers are individualistic by nature - Triumph (& Ducati) know this hence the 80 accesories you mention. But they have become so ubiquitous, there is very little an owner can do to his/her beloved steed that is ever gonna make it stand out in a crowded bikers haunt full of the same machines.

I mention ‘modern’ suspension and electrics in the context of describing the authenticity of the 961’s ride, in comparison to vintage parallel twins, but without their poor suspension and electrics.
Click to expand...

That’s the issue. There are not that many people “buying”. There may be some “looking”. But again if they didn’t bite the first time from 2010 -2018 then I think you might have a few that want but not a lot of new “lookers” and “buyers”

The authenticity of ride? What exactly does that mean. Is it authentic that a modern motorcycle sounds like a thrashing machine and washing machine along with some pterodactyl noises occasionally.

You mistake a hand built premium item with a item that is put together with parts from china, Thailand, India etc. that’s not hand built just because they are putting parts together. Every Harley Davidson is “hand built” if that’s the case. now look at confederate that’s actually a hand built motorcycle.

The fact no other entity during the first run wanted to make parts shows the lack of interest in the model has a whole.
 
Agreed (mostly) ref the pool of potential buyers - and with the current state of the economy in the UK! It would also be of benefit if this was the first time the buying public had seen the machine. I guess only time will tell though ref total sales. Many may not have been ready to purchase in the Donington era- or had reservations then that no longer exist. That was 4-5 years ago - lots of water under the bridge.

I’m not sure how much the dodgy Donington dealings (and talk of reliability) impacted on 961 sales initially, but they would have no doubt towards the back end of the Donington production run. If the buying public accept that this is all resolved then who knows. Ultimate success, whatever that looks like, will likely depend on international sales. Norton talk openly about export, but will this be dependent on interest in the UK? Again we can only speculate.

Yes a modern machine/components, but using a configuration that dates back 70+ years. Authentic to the type of ride/feel that air-cooled parallel twins provided back in the day. Not turbine smooth or sanitised. Not one thing pretending to be another.

Not sure how else to describe the quality aspect without getting hung up on the source of some components or the manner in which they are assembled? Maybe - what will the guy looking to purchase see by way of quality, if he views a Triumph Thruxton or Street Triple (to use your examples), sat next to a Norton 961? Noting that if he’s considering the Norton he has the money.

Not sure I agree with your last point. Numbers were likely too small for aftermarket firms to be interested and Norton themselves stepped in to prevent some firms from producing parts - carbon etc. Not sure that’s necessarily an indicator of general interest.
 
That said - Check out the guy cornering the 23 RS in the middle of the vid! Had’nt looked at the RS recently. I ain’t swapping, but a sweet ride!



GBP 14300 before you add a single one of these though!

961 is back !
 
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City Garage said:
You have made my point. You have a narrow audience plus an even more narrow buyer. Do you think an underpowered Porsche would sell just because it "looks nice" and pays homage to its heritage? That's not what sells Porsches.

And keep in mind I like them and agree they have great styling, and we service them before thinking I am being negative

"modern suspension and electrics" If you think the electrical system is modern, then you must be using candles at home. They are using bulbs instead of LED, they claim a 300-watt charging system(not so much), and the intake is prehistoric, as is the ECU. Who uses a full-size fuse when so many other options are available and can save space along with protecting more components? Soldering diodes inline is weak. Wiring size and type are substandard. Ground points need to be better. The battery is subjected to heat and venting issues along with cable management issues that could have been addressed with better lugs and wiring. Power distribution is all over the place. Fuses one place and then in another. A main fuse should be an inline or a resettable breaker type. The starter wiring is horrible because it's based on the Harley starter. A larger kv starter should be installed.

Suspension. Front flex and rear have some travel limitations. You can throw Ohlins on any motorcycle, but that doesn't make it "better" unless it is matched to the rider's weight and bike geometry. Do you think those Ohlins are good? Try having someone who knows how to tune them and then ride The suspension is worthless for heavier riders, and woefully inadequate brakes, the rear brake especially.

Spring Rate = Rider Weight (Including riding gear) Ohilns has a rather wide spread, so unless you are in that category with gear and most had 8.5 installed. We have changed both the front and rear springs on a few. Makes a world of difference.

That's not even everything on those subjects, just what I could think of while typing.

This is not a collector motorcycle. I know many collectors and even true Norton collectors and this and the previous ones haven't made it into their collections. Why is that? It's not money... Not one in Leno's collection, and he's a big fan. Just ask anyone who sees him at our local Hansen Dam rally each year. What other collection or motorcycle museum has this bike made it into?


And anyone after riding a Triumph Thruxton with the Arrow exhaust and adjustable tuning would gladly buy that over a Norton. Plus, you actually get what you paid for. plus plus...you have over 80 "factory" accessories, not to mention the aftermarket for it.

And nothing on the market? Ducati Monster, Thruxton, Street Triple, KTM Duke. so many others even in the 600cc range out perform a 961

Even the BMW G 310 R that TVS is making is a "better" motorcycle.




​

Click to expand...
Wow CG , You are slicing and dicing us . Yes , the Triumph is a "better everything" motorcycle . This was not the case before 2016 .
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
That said - Check out the guy cornering the 23 RS in the middle of the vid! Had’nt looked at the RS recently. I ain’t swapping, but a sweet ride!



GBP 14300 before you add a single one of these though!
Click to expand...

Yes, the new 1200cc Hinckley Triumphs handle great, with nimble, quick handling, and great high speed stability.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Not sure I agree with your last point. Numbers were likely too small for aftermarket firms to be interested and Norton themselves stepped in to prevent some firms from producing parts - carbon etc. Not sure that’s necessarily an indicator of general interest.
Click to expand...
They could only stop their suppliers, but you can't prevent others from making parts. We looked into doing chain guards and front fenders. The molds were easy enough, but the market for them would not have paid what we would have needed to charge.
 
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City Garage said:
I know that was a little harsh Tony but the new 961 is not the second coming that some are making it to be. I would be happy just to have some parts supply!
Click to expand...
I think only Norton themselves are advertising it as a ‘second coming‘ CG ;). The rest of us are well aware of what it is, what it represents and its limitations - as discussed. I guess though, that if performance were the only measure of a motorcycle then bikes like the 961 (and many others) simply would not exist.

More performance = Better motorcycle? Then absolutely none of us should have wasted our money on an air-cooled, push rod, 2 valve per cylinder, parallel twin with literally no tech🤣!! Has anybody seen my ABS!?

“Even the BMW 310R that TVS is making is a ‘better‘ motorcycle”. Now that’s just heresy!!:oops:

961 is back !
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I think only Norton themselves are advertising it as a ‘second coming‘ CG ;). The rest of us are well aware of what it is, what it represents and its limitations - as discussed. I guess though, that if performance were the only measure of a motorcycle then bikes like the 961 (and many others) simply would not exist.

More performance = Better motorcycle? Then absolutely none of us should have wasted our money on an air-cooled, push rod, 2 valve per cylinder, parallel twin with literally no tech🤣!! Has anybody seen my ABS!?

“Even the BMW 310R that TVS is making is a ‘better‘ motorcycle”. Now that’s just heresy!!:oops:

View attachment 107880
Click to expand...
But selling it like a "premium" isn't going to get it any where.
 
City Garage said:
But selling it like a "premium" isn't going to get it any where.
Click to expand...
You may be right or completely wrong CG, or it will be somewhere in between; only time will tell. Difficult to talk in absolutes about the future though mate, as you do here - remember it was your good self that said (way back) that TVS had no intention of ever building motorcycles;).

It’s at a price point that Norton obviously needs it to be to make an acceptable profit - that places it squarely in the premium bracket regardless. How else are they gonna market it? I think most would say that the materials, construction methods and components used may also be described as premium. I don’t think premium is normally a descriptor used for performance.

None of the semantics matter of course - it will either sell in sufficient numbers to meet Nortons targets, or it won’t. It will be interesting to see whether they will export, if UK sales are deemed insufficient - let’s hope that’s not the case. With the V4 models a low volume proposition, it makes it more important than ever that they introduce further models to the range - potentially at different price points. My opinion only.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Absolutely right CG.

961 sales numbers were / are TINY comparatively speaking.

And anyone making aftermarket parts also understands that only a small proportion of the total ownership is ever going to buy your aftermarket parts.

So, a small portion of a tiny number is your potential market size.

That‘s why there aren’t many aftermarket parts out there boyz, and it is highly unlikely to change.
Click to expand...
Yep, agreed FE. Numbers have always been too low to attract the usual aftermarket suppliers. I seem to remember Donington Norton sending ‘cease and desist‘ letters out to some aftermarket firms though (carbon I think) for producing items that replicated their own and therefore infringing copy right - may be remembering wrongly.

I don’t think we really have a handle on how many 961’s are selling currently - do we have any clue? Or how long the model line-up may run for, or whether they may export successfully, or future variants that may eventuate - if the 961 were to be a success 2nd time around, might Norton consider the Dommie again - unlikely I think. Might aftermarket suppliers step in as sales increase (hopefully)? ‘Unlikely’ say you - ‘maybe’ say I. But then I’ve always been an optimist.
 
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The 961 is back is it not ? We can buy parts for Norton Commando 961's (the ones that still fit) correct ? What would it take for Norton to produce a V4 at half the price it is now ? Based on most things I've read it needs to cost less than 30K . How much can they reduce the price if you take out all of the polishing , Ohlins for Showa , Brembo for Nissin , OZ and BST for Asian , Carbon fiber tanks for Aluminum ? If this was done what would the new base model price be ?
 
My last Donington stock check shows a V4 as having a cost price of around £20k. As to how accurate that is, is another thing.
 
How can anyone claim a motorcycle or anything for that matter, with China made parts as a premium product?

The 961 isn’t a premium brand nor can it pretend to be.
TVS can not and has not been vocal or forward of anything that they claim they improved.

Just saying they made 300 or 1/3 improvements means nothing.
They failed to even showcase these claims to the buyers market. And, as others have said, the virtual internet reviewers mean absolutely nothing.

Saying TVS Norton is a premium brand is pretty funny.
Are the MV Agustas and CCM bikes premium?

Low production volume and high price doesn’t make it a premium. It just means low sales and low demand.
The 961 doesn’t have or use premium materials.

The resale prices of the 961 shows that the bike isn’t in high demand.


Not really my cup of tea, but I would consider the Brough Superior a more Premium brand than any 961.

www.brough-superior-motorcycles.com

Brough Superior Motorcycles Official Website

Brough Superior Motorcycles Legendary Models
www.brough-superior-motorcycles.com www.brough-superior-motorcycles.com
 
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