961 is back !

Thanks Stephen glad you enjoyed its really interesting seeing everyone else's take from the show on social media. For a bit of perspective on bike history.

Yep firmly in the vintage camp having said that when times were better I worked my way through 28 bikes total wise now, few highlights outside of nortons being rd350lc's, did 2,000 miles in a week on a rd250lc rzv500r v4 2 stroke, cbr1000rr fireblade, 3 bmw gs's one of which is currently in the stable being a 1200gs rallye 2018 full to the rafters with tech being full te spec so if Norton had a modern stripped back adv like an Enfield himmy but with more HP an lighter that'd be sat in my garage now I'd say the adv market is huge with my age group. Had Quite a few gixers, vstrom 1000 and 650s + an ex iom 675 race bike, so I've ridden a few different packages over the years the modern stuff gets swapped out either every 6 months or 12 months usually to keep the miles sensible on them and even now my daily is the 650ss from 1967 which is about to do its 4th full winter as I don't have a car an the gs is under a sheet at the mo. An the 1927 16h is about to do its 2nd winter now I've got the mag back. An im gonna be running my 68 Commando in over winter all being well nearly done so hopefully that gives a bit of background to me commenting on the 961 an what I'd like to see from Norton with some of the breadth of bikes I've owned and rode. Cut me in half an it says Norton.

storm42 said:

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Beautiful in a modern way but personally not to my taste, can't see the engine!

Just noticed watching a video of the 2011 961 and the first oil coolers were small. Similar to the new 961? Wondering was the change to a larger unit a cooling thing or a cost/availability reason.

Yeah looks like they went back to the Dreer style cooler

All three variations of the Donington cooler ie the silver bar and plate aluminium one and the two different black cooler designs, are much larger...so I assume it was a design thought more than cost.

Stu Bodycote said:

All three variations of the Donington cooler ie the silver bar and plate aluminium one and the two different black cooler designs, are much larger...so I assume it was a design thought more than cost.

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And given that they also reinforced the mounts, they likely considered the weight of the cooler.

Nothing new but not a bad writeup about the feel and purpose of the new 961. Of course the differences between old and new 961 are overblown - we need to get used to that I suppose.

I'm no engineer, but that curved gear linkage still looks 'wrong'. IMHO

EstuaryBoy said:

I'm no engineer, but that curved gear linkage still looks 'wrong'. IMHO

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The story about this that I was told is that the design was a result of Dreer running out of development money, and needing to move to production, or risk financial failure. This issue prevented Dreer from fully developing several of the 961's components.

On the 952 prototype, Dreer located the shift lever in the traditional position, below and behind the clutch. However, this necessitated a very long and "flexy" shifter pawl assembly that provided a very poor engagement feel for the rider. This issue was never resolved, so when the 961 design was finalized, Dreer decided to return to the original design with the strange reverse lever mounted in the middle of the primary cover. It was the Donington folks who decided to replace the Dreer lever with the curvy shift rod assembly. The curvy rod design actually resulted in an improvement in shifter feel.

One of the other areas that suffered from lack of development funds, and time was the gear driven camshaft. The 952 did indeed have a cam gear drive, not a cam chain. However, the gears were very noisy. Once again, time, and money ran out, and the 961 design reverted to the chain driven design.

Stephen_Spencer said:

Nothing new but not a bad writeup about the feel and purpose of the new 961. Of course the differences between old and new 961 are overblown - we need to get used to that I suppose.

NORTON COMMANDO 961 | TEST

The new Norton Commando 961 may look like the one launched back in 2015 by the ‘old’ and now disgraced Norton regime. But...

amcn.com.au

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Another nice, very cursory view of the NEW 961, but there still is nothing in this report to sink your teeth into.
Dr Bob needs to have a couple of long-term tests done to show that the 961 is finally FIXED.
The test doesn't need to show perfection, just that the 961 now operates like any other modern EFI motorcycle in function and reliability over the long-term.
If this is done successfully, there will be plenty of interest in the 961.

BritTwit said:

Another nice, very cursory view of the NEW 961, but there still is nothing in this report to sink your teeth into.
Dr Bob needs to have a couple of long-term tests done to show that the 961 is finally FIXED.
The test doesn't need to show perfection, just that the 961 now operates like any other modern EFI motorcycle in function and reliability over the long-term.
If this is done successfully, there will be plenty of interest in the 961.

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No doubt the long term tests will come BT, but if somebody wants a new 961 I don’t think a lack of reliability with a previous incarnation will stop many. If they have any lingering doubts about the ’its all fixed’ claims, they would likely be satisfied with a two year warranty. Don’t see too many people waiting 1 or 2 years to make such a purchase.

Also there may be a view that Birmingham Norton are still newly launched without a clear future (which start-up does), or certainly a clear future for the model. There may be a ‘get a new one now whilst you can‘ thought for some.

Well that's certainly a positive outlook, but I think the 961's past reputation will be a bit of a dark cloud on sales until the all of the bad press is finally blown out to sea with some really positive, meaningful tests.
The factory should be aggressive in doing this so as to show that they are completely confident in the redesigned machine.

BritTwit said:

Well that's certainly a positive outlook, but I think the 961's past reputation will be a bit of a dark cloud on sales until the all of the bad press is finally blown out to sea with some really positive, meaningful tests.
The factory should be aggressive in doing this so as to show that they are completely confident in the redesigned machine.

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I would love to ride one and see for myself how much has been refined .

TonyA said:

I would love to ride one and see for myself how much has been refined .

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My guess is that it would be difficult to tell between the two- may be wrong. Having improved reliability will be the real bonus.

Stephen_Spencer said:

My guess is that it would be difficult to tell between the two- may be wrong. Having improved reliability will be the real bonus.

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A properly balanced , smoother and quiet power plant will improve reliability.

BritTwit said:

The story about this that I was told is that the design was a result of Dreer running out of development money, and needing to move to production, or risk financial failure. This issue prevented Dreer from fully developing several of the 961's components.

On the 952 prototype, Dreer located the shift lever in the traditional position, below and behind the clutch. However, this necessitated a very long and "flexy" shifter pawl assembly that provided a very poor engagement feel for the rider. This issue was never resolved, so when the 961 design was finalized, Dreer decided to return to the original design with the strange reverse lever mounted in the middle of the primary cover. It was the Donington folks who decided to replace the Dreer lever with the curvy shift rod assembly. The curvy rod design actually resulted in an improvement in shifter feel.

One of the other areas that suffered from lack of development funds, and time was the gear driven camshaft. The 952 did indeed have a cam gear drive, not a cam chain. However, the gears were very noisy. Once again, time, and money ran out, and the 961 design reverted to the chain driven des

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Stephen_Spencer said:

No doubt the long term tests will come BT, but if somebody wants a new 961 I don’t think a lack of reliability with a previous incarnation will stop many. If they have any lingering doubts about the ’its all fixed’ claims, they would likely be satisfied with a two year warranty. Don’t see too many people waiting 1 or 2 years to make such a purchase.

Also there may be a view that Birmingham Norton are still newly launched without a clear future (which start-up does), or certainly a clear future for the model. There may be a ‘get a new one now whilst you can‘ thought for some.

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When NVT launched the MkIII Commando I seem to remember that in the adverts they ran, they listed over 100 changes from the previous model. That is what TVS should do in my opinion.

Fast Eddie said:

Absolutely.

They should list them. And as I’ve said before, they should get the engineering head to show and explain the juicy ones in videos ( like MV did, as I posted before).

Norton are dealing with enthusiasts here who want that kind of info. They’re also facing not inconsiderable historic bad reputations that need dispelling.

Just saying ‘we’ve changed or improved 300 things’ is not enough!

And still no mention at all about what they’ve done, if anything, to address the dreadful primary clatter.

If the changes are genuine, and worthy of the claims, THEN TELL US ABOUT THEM !!

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Now now. Don’t be to harsh on TVS, some here will be upset and say all you do is complain and contradict yourself and expect too much to soon. These kind of things take time.
You’re beginning to sound like an American, always thinking it’s all about you and you first.

After all, it’s only been nearly 3 years and it’s not like they had another 961 to compare it too. Why brag about something if you’re not proud of the improvements you claim you’ve made?

Can you imagine making 30% improvements and not saying a single word or showing potential buyers or current owners what those improvements are?

It would be amazing if in todays times, we had the capability to make a video presentation that could reach millions of people worldwide showing them of all the improvements and advancements we put effort into. Just to please our future customers. If only that were a thing. Too bad something like the internet or social media doesn’t exist.

I mean, it’s not like we have a multi million dollar state of the art brand new facility here. Please, cut TVS some slack.

Now, now, we know that Dr Bob is a very deliberate professional, and will share this info with all of us in his own time.
We wouldn't want hasty pudding, would we?

Fast Eddie said:

Well that depends… on whether or not he’s actually interested in selling these machines…!?!

Seriously, I would have thought this idea appealed to Dr Bobs natural German logic and engineering mindset.

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Dr Bob may not be the one in charge of Publicity/Advertising.
But whoever that person may be, he/she had better get with the program if they want to sell product.