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961 - Heavy Misfire - the full kangaroo

Discussion in 'Norton Motorcycles (Modern)' started by TerryW, Apr 18, 2019.

  1. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Cos it’s all still working perfectly!

    The carbs stay on the mantle piece until the electrics start acting the goat and / or the warranty is over !
     
  2. Clive

    Clive VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Hope the coil fixes it but you could do with some way of seeing if a HT pulse from the coil is coming through when it cuts - mad idea but something like a plug lead inline timing light taped in place where you can see it. You need that fuel/ignition diagnosis - statement of the *** obvious.... Anyone got any bright ideas?
     
    TerryW likes this.
  3. TerryW

    TerryW

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    I have such a thing in my toolbox. It is a plastic tube that flashes when the plug is energised. I’ll stick it on the leads before I go out next test ride. I am pretty sure that i have a no spark situation because of the smell of unburnt fuel in the exhaust.
     
  4. BritTwit

    BritTwit VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Smart move.
    Wait a while and Dave Coote will have the FCR and ignition igniter for the 961 figured out.
    Then we can have a 961CR-FCR.

    Then all I'll need is my supercharger.
     
    richard-7 likes this.
  5. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Good point.

    Go Dave !
     
    richard-7 likes this.
  6. TerryW

    TerryW

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    So, new Bosch coil installed. No difference. I did the test run with the spark plug plastic tube things attached to provide visibility of firing. It ran for about 8 minutes before starting to miss heavily and then conk out. Clues: it has to get warm. Runs ok when first started. After its conked out sometimes the ignition switch has be cycled before the starter will crank. When conking out the plastic things stop flashing I.e. no spark. There is a small of fuel from the exhaust.

    So, the fun tonight was:

    1) to take the fuse box from under the cowl and wiggling all the wires with the engine idling. No effect. Took the headlamp out and wiggled all the wiring in the headlamp shell. By wiggle, I mean grasp each individual wire in a tiny pair of long nose pliers and shake the wire to see if it would work loose or the engine miss a beat. The wiring is as sound as a pound. No signs of burning, fraying, breaks or anything else. I am pretty sure the wiring is good.

    2) when the engine was warm and therefore dying all the time, I switched out the relays I.e. replaced the IGN relay with the mainbeam relay and then replaced the Fuel relay with the mainbeam relay. All to no effect whatsoever. Still runs for a short while and then conks out with no spark. It ain't the relays.

    So, in the absence of anything else, all I can do is keep swapping in new parts until the problem disappears. This could be expensive. I'll see if Rob at Norton can suggest what to swap next.

    Anyone want a nice working Bosch coil. I just replaced a good one with a brand new good one.

    Terry
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  7. 2cups

    2cups

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2018
    Hi Terry I don’t think my bike has a Bosch coil. Where is the name displayed?
     
  8. Lincolnshire Poacher

    Lincolnshire Poacher

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2018
    Check the main fuse holder. My 2013 Sport had insulation inside the female connectors of the main fuse. In the end I cut out the main fuse holder and replaced with a new one and this sorted my intermittent electrics.
     
  9. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    2cups likes this.
  10. Raphi

    Raphi

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    May be defective kill switch...
    Just as a new idea.
     
  11. Raphi

    Raphi

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Or side stand or tilt switch?
     
  12. TerryW

    TerryW

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    There is a small Bosch symbol stamped on the back of the unit. It looks like a rivet enclosed by a circle. I’ll add a photo when I get home. I am away at the mo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
    2cups likes this.
  13. TerryW

    TerryW

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    I Tested the side stand switch by cutting it out of the circuit by jumpering across the wiring loom at the connector. No change.
    Now that i am intimate with the wiring runs I am going to try this again as well testing the tilt switch in the rear-cowl in the same way.
     
  14. TerryW

    TerryW

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Cool. I have been all over the fuse/relay holder but there are other fuses under the tank. I havent looked at those.
    Thanks.
     
  15. Clive

    Clive VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    It doesn't sound to me like something loose ie relay/ switch otherwise I would expect if it was ridden over a rough/ speed humpy surface you would expect it to cut then. So a sensor linked to ecu ignition timing getting hot and failing or is it an ecu problem? Coil driver output stage overheating and cutting out?

    Does the starter still occasionally not turn over? That should be a big clue as you said. If you can turn the ignition off then on again and it then works without fiddling with side stand etc that says to me that it could be either the ignition switch or ecu????

    Do you have to wait a long while for it to recover to normal once it has cut?

    Can't remember whether you said what the instruments do when it cuts.
     
    TonyA likes this.
  16. TonyA

    TonyA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    Some Hinckley Triumphs had the ignition pickup on crankshaft going bad I recall . The symptoms were hot engine and then no spark. And as Clive says the ECU essentially controls everything . I have not heard of the ignition pickup going bad on a 961 yet. BUT , I have heard of ECU failures though . Your bike is a 2011 I think you said , So do you have the original OMEX ecu ?
     
  17. Clive

    Clive VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    How long is it until it starts to misfire? If you left it ticking over stationary would it cut when it got hot?
     
  18. richard-7

    richard-7

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014

    I forgot which manual but there is a fuse off the battery that used to vibrate out and kill the bike. Check if yours has a nylon tie. If not. Try adding one.
     
  19. TerryW

    TerryW

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Well, this reply is really spooky! While doing some diagnostics the starter ceased to run when I pushed the starter button. I lost all voltage off the starter solenoid wire (when pressing the starter button). I tracked this back to the aforementioned fuse under the tank. Indeed, it had no tie-wrap to hold it steady. It now has one plus it is cleaned up although it wasn't dirty.

    Earlier I found the crank position sender plug has some 'grot' forced down inside it. It looked like paper! The rubber grommet was rancid as well. I cleaned all the 'grot' out and made the joint really sound and shrouded it with rubber. It made absolutely no difference to the fault though. A real tease eh!

    The process I now use to reliably generate the fault without moving away from my garage is: 1) run the engine until hotish (12 minutes at idle). Before the fault comes on the engine will rev ok; 2) When the fault has come on an increase in revs kills the engine; 3) The ign fuse (green and white wires) now starts to blow when cranking the engine;

    I ran out of 10A fuses so the fun was curtailed this evening. I'll get more fuses and restart tomorrow evening.
     
    richard-7 likes this.
  20. TerryW

    TerryW

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    No idea how long it takes for the fault to disappear. I always leave it overnight.
     

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