961 FIRST RIDE
- Thread starter BPHORSEGUY
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batrider said:
Some owners are reporting problems ref. oil consumption on the NOC website. Don't know the recommended running-in procedure but it depends on the cylinder surface finish. This should be such that no or minimal running in is required. Engines which require long run-in have 'crude' surface finish. Loads of info from piston ring manufacturers web sites. http://www.brushresearch.com/literature.php?type=2 Also http://www.brushresearch.com/ and
http://www.hastingsmfg.com/ContentData. ... ntentid=82 and http://www.hastingsmfg.com/
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Al-otment said:
Norton recommends for the first 300 miles, no full throttle, vary RPM, no lugging, no prolonged operation above 3500 RPM which limits your speed to about
60mph. From 300 to 400 miles 4000 RPM gradually increase throttle openings, vary RPM, from 400-600 only very brief full throttle , 6000 RPM. Various other sources which have some real credibility point to modern honing methods which will have the critical piston ring -cylinder bore scuffing in ,or bedding, or breaking in occuring in as little as 20 or 50 miles. These sources say that correct scuffing and therefore sealing will not happen at these very conservative recommendations. These sources say that OEM recommendations are merely designed to protect the warranty and makers liability! They also point to how professional race teams break in their super expensive engines. Of course they aren't looking for 100,000 miles but they are looking for the best scuffing in and seal. Others argue that race engines are designed to be , well raced! My opinion on this is simple! FIRST, read the OEM recommendations, SECOND do the homework on the opposing viewpoints, THIRD if YOU spend $20000+ on your bike YOU decide how best to break it in, FOURTH if you decide to deviate from the OEM procedure do not advertise the fact on a public forum!! :mrgreen:
BPHORSEGUY said:
Not for real racing, just track days under controlled conditions or not at all ! I agree with you , its much to beautiful, rare, not to mention expensive![/quote]
Jeez, we race Vincents on the track all the time and they stopped building them 58 years ago!
Sounds like the rarity of these bikes will decline soon, Garner plans to keep stepping up production and I imagine will eventually get caught up with demand. If they become a stocked item in Dealerships, I will be sorely tempted!
Glen
Garner says he intends to "slightly undersupply " the market in order to keep prices high. I wonder if he will actually do that if his ability to produce starts to exceed the market. More than likely this was more of an excuse for the extreme undersupply that was causing all of the complaints!
It is hard to guess at future markets. A friend decided to try motorcycling for the first time at age 60. He is quite obese and decided two wheels weren't for him. Instead he bought a new three wheeled Canam Spyder. He paid 23,000 for it and informed me that it would appreciate in value "just like your Vincents have" At the time there was an undersupply and dealers could sell every unit they could get their hands on. He kept it for two years and rode/ drove it just 2500 miles, it was as new, stored indoors and all. By then the supply had caught up to demand and the best he could get for it was 10,000 an it took quite awhile to sell at that!
So I guess one should buy something like that because there are no roof racks on the Hearse, not to make money!
Glen
It is hard to guess at future markets. A friend decided to try motorcycling for the first time at age 60. He is quite obese and decided two wheels weren't for him. Instead he bought a new three wheeled Canam Spyder. He paid 23,000 for it and informed me that it would appreciate in value "just like your Vincents have" At the time there was an undersupply and dealers could sell every unit they could get their hands on. He kept it for two years and rode/ drove it just 2500 miles, it was as new, stored indoors and all. By then the supply had caught up to demand and the best he could get for it was 10,000 an it took quite awhile to sell at that!
So I guess one should buy something like that because there are no roof racks on the Hearse, not to make money!
Glen
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worntorn said:
Did you laugh in his face or wait until he took his three wheeled monstrosity down the road?
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What I would consider high oil consumption is within automotive dealers responding to customer complaints declare as normal, but I believe its just flannel. I have a 125K honda crv with no oil consumption between oil changes so why is 1qt per 1000 miles acceptable?
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There were only 2 reports and one was aprotype that shouldn't have been sold but Norton stepped up and updated itAl-otment said:BPHORSEGUY said:
They may have a point! Several owners reporting consumption in the region of 350miles/pint - apparently Norton have said this is normal!?
Had a 2002 VW Jetta 2.0. VW acceptable consumption was 1QT per 1000 miles.
So between oil changes 3 of the 5 quarts missing was acceptable.
Ours consumed just shy of the quart per 1000.
Pure BS from and unacceptable from any manufacturer.
Come to find out the Mexicans who assembled the engines installed the rings upside down.
So has Stuart started employing a Mexican workforce?
So between oil changes 3 of the 5 quarts missing was acceptable.
Ours consumed just shy of the quart per 1000.
Pure BS from and unacceptable from any manufacturer.
Come to find out the Mexicans who assembled the engines installed the rings upside down.
So has Stuart started employing a Mexican workforce?
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BPHORSEGUY said:There were only 2 reports and one was aprotype that shouldn't have been sold but Norton stepped up and updated itAl-otment said:BPHORSEGUY said:
They may have a point! Several owners reporting consumption in the region of 350miles/pint - apparently Norton have said this is normal!?
Just had a look at the thread "Absolute Nightmare with 2010 model" (NOC forum) and there are 5 owners mentioning high oil consumption, as one of them states, quite a high ratio. Dosen't explain why Norton apparently say this is normal. Some owners, without reported problems, seem over protective toward SG and his bikes despite these reports from fellow owners. Can't work this out. Just burying their head in the sand or trying to protect the value of investments?
Dosen't matter what the nationality is of the assembly line - the buck stops with the management, they're the ones running the company.
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Norton, BMW, Honda,Vw, and everyone else consider this within industry standard in that same thread though owners may not . There were 4 owners reporting one being second hand and at least one bike was a prototype. Out of almost 1500 bikes I took a chance, there is a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty which the same post reports Norton going above and beyond even after expiration.
The engines for the early bikes were built by a subcontractor (Menard?) The newer engines and those in all of the US bikes just shipped have Norton built engines. The article on this stated that Garner made the switch to building the engines in house after experiencing quality problems with the Subcontracted engines. This switch to in house engines created further delays in production, which increased anger levels of those who had paid up and already been waiting a long time.
The article does not state what the quality problems were but high oil consumption would be a big concern, it is not acceptable in a modern machine. Zero oil consumption between changes is the standard now.
It will be interesting to see how these "in house" engined bikes work out, my optimistic guess is they will have dealt with all the early issues such as high oil consumption.
It may be that the unhappy people who were made to wait are actually quite lucky to get this second generation engine rather than the 1st, hopefully it will be problem free.
Glen
The article does not state what the quality problems were but high oil consumption would be a big concern, it is not acceptable in a modern machine. Zero oil consumption between changes is the standard now.
It will be interesting to see how these "in house" engined bikes work out, my optimistic guess is they will have dealt with all the early issues such as high oil consumption.
It may be that the unhappy people who were made to wait are actually quite lucky to get this second generation engine rather than the 1st, hopefully it will be problem free.
Glen
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My bike was delivered with the oil 1/4 inch above the lower line and that is where it is today. I bought a quart of the recommended Silkolene oil but have not had a need to open it. I have been in touch with 2 of the other owners of the first 10 US bikes and they report similar results. Unfortunately with winter setting in for most of us further observation will have to wait! 
Talk of it and it happens.
British Italian MCs in Vancouver has a couple of 961s sitting for sale in their showroom. They brought a couple in earlier that were preordered way back, but this latest pair are for sale to anyone willing to part with the $. Sounds like Norton is catching up!
Glen
British Italian MCs in Vancouver has a couple of 961s sitting for sale in their showroom. They brought a couple in earlier that were preordered way back, but this latest pair are for sale to anyone willing to part with the $. Sounds like Norton is catching up!
Glen
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BPHORSEGUY said:My bike was delivered with the oil 1/4 inch above the lower line and that is where it is today. I bought a quart of the recommended Silkolene oil but have not had a need to open it. I have been in touch with 2 of the other owners of the first 10 US bikes and they report similar results. Unfortunately with winter setting in for most of us further observation will have to wait!
It's pointless stating that your bike has used no, or very little oil, without stating mileage covered. Never mind who built the problematic engines, I'm surprised that Norton hasn't jumped at the opportunity to put them right. What kind of warranty does £15,000 buy you with these bikes? With Norton refusing to acknowledge a problem it appears any bikes with high oil consumption are going to have to be fixed by the owner. Having personally experienced being ripped off by a dodgy dealer, they have my sympathy.
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Au contraire, having been the owner of at least 3 vehicles that approach the 1 quart per 1000 miles industry standard any meticulous person will tell you that they can see the level moving down the stick during checks long before 1000 miles. One of the vehicles was a brand new 2008 Honda which Honda would not fix because it was normal and in spec !
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BPHORSEGUY said:
I would argue normal for a two stroke - not four stroke. It would appear manufacturers are baffling owners with bull shit rather than a logical engineering argument.
Customer: "My bikes using 1 pint of oil every 350 miles, I think there's something wrong and I'm not happy", Manufacturer: "That's normal, sir", Customer: "O.k, thanks".
If you're happy with this crap, then just keep putting the oil in. In the case of Norton it's company bullshit, with other examples is it dealer or manufacturer bullshit?
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