850 MkIII Shop Manual & Parts Catalog Errors (2017)

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I have a question regarding section C33-1. The manual states:

"1 Grease the crankcase studs lightly and apply a coat of Loctite "plastic gasket" material to the cylinder base flange."

They do not call out the exact Loctite product to be used. I suspect that Loctite 549 is what they are referring to. See

http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/product- ... 7713563649

&

https://tds.us.henkel.com/NA/UT/HNAUTTD ... 549-EN.pdf

That product has been around a long time. Loctite has other, newer products, such as 518 [or the slightly slower setting 515], which would work here. See

http://www.loctite.com.au/3320_AUE_HTML ... 2626633729

http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/ShowP ... lant=WERCS

I would like comments from those who have used both products. Also comment on other products which work well here.
 
chaztuna said:
I have a question regarding section C33-1. The manual states:

"1 Grease the crankcase studs lightly and apply a coat of Loctite "plastic gasket" material to the cylinder base flange."

They do not call out the exact Loctite product to be used.
Click to expand...

The particular grade of Loctite (Cat. No. ??) was 'factory' supplied (inc. a bottle of primer) as part 064208.

PLASTIC GASKET KIT, LOCTITE, NORTON, COMMANDO, GENUINE NOS, 06-4208 - Genuine

PLASTIC GASKET KIT, LOCTITE, NORTON, COMMANDO, GENUINE NOS, 06-4208 - Genuine
www.trojanclassics.com www.trojanclassics.com


However, for the 850 Mk3, the factory went back to fitting a base gasket (06-3812, Mk3 Parts book, Group 2, Item '25') so the reference to 'Loctite plastic gasket' in C33 appears to be another error carried over from the previous ('73) manual.
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-dr ... nder-head#
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-de ... -base-850-
 
I have been using 515 for 10 years, always get a leak free joint and no excess bulging out of the joint ready to drop off.
 
L.A.B. said:
snipped
The particular grade of Loctite (Cat. No. ??) was 'factory' supplied (inc. a bottle of primer) as part 064208.

PLASTIC GASKET KIT, LOCTITE, NORTON, COMMANDO, GENUINE NOS, 06-4208 - Genuine

PLASTIC GASKET KIT, LOCTITE, NORTON, COMMANDO, GENUINE NOS, 06-4208 - Genuine
www.trojanclassics.com www.trojanclassics.com

However, for the 850 Mk3, the factory went back to fitting a base gasket (06-3812, Mk3 Parts book, Group 2, Item '25') so the reference to 'Loctite plastic gasket' in C33 appears to be another error carried over from the previous ('73) manual.
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-dr ... nder-head#
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-de ... -base-850-
Click to expand...

I was aware that the Mk IIIs use a cylinder base gasket. I also noticed that the AN top end gasket kits for 70 - 74 models also contains a cylinder base gasket. 850 top end kit P/N 06.6093

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-de ... composite-

Color me impressed that you have one of those Loctite "Plastic Gasket" kits to photograph.
 
chaztuna said:
I also noticed that the AN top end gasket kits for 70 - 74 models also contains a cylinder base gasket. 850 top end kit P/N 06.6093
Click to expand...

Yes, a base gasket is usually included in 750/850 gasket sets and which would have been standard before '73 (750 models).



chaztuna said:
Color me impressed that you have one of those Loctite "Plastic Gasket" kits to photograph.
Click to expand...

No, I don't have the kit and I can't take any credit for the photo as it's an ebay ad. image link from a previous discussion, just about every Commando subject you can think of having been discussed here at one time or another (some, numerous times) in the past.

www.accessnorton.com

Base gasket or no base gasket

In the last 2 rebuilds, both 750 Commandos engines I only used gasket sealent (3bond) under the barrels as recomanded in the workshop manual, but when rebuilding my own 850 I always used the base gasket, I am rebuilding a mate's 850 engine and just about to put the barrels back on so am...
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com

http://www.ebay.com/itm/plastic-gasket- ... 0522615736
(06-4209 was actually the NV 'Nut lock' kit)

www.accessnorton.com

Norton Villiers Loctite

For the owner who thought he had everything....Norton Villiers Loctite 'Plastic Gasket', Part No. 064208, complete with Green Globe symbol. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161487814231? ... EBIDX%3AIT
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
 
After a 9 month layoff [I got sick, then forgot about this project] I've managed to edit another 10% of the manual in the past 2 days. Read section E 5 [carburetor reassembly]. See how many items they forgot about in the reassembly instructions. FYI, these omissions also occur in the earlier Commando manuals [I checked] ;)

Lots of little errors, like the fact that the Mk 3 petcocks use Stat O Seals [aka Dowty washers] in stead of fiber washers.

dynodave, Thanks for pointing out the excessive torque spec for the gearbox main-shaft to clutch nut. I've corrected it in both section A & C. Keep those errors , omissions & typos coming folks.
 
In section F9, there is a recommendation for 94 octane minimum. In a lot of areas in the USA, only 93 or 91 octane [motor + research /2] is readily available. [You can always buy 100 Low Lead at most airports. It's about a $1 - $2 a gallon more expensive than auto fuel. In spite of it's name, it has a lot of tetra-ethyl lead in it]
I'm curious. Does anyone know if Norton was referring to motor or research octane numbers? Which was the common standard in use in the UK in the late 1960s & early 1970s? I suspect this recommendation goes all the way back to the first Commando manuals.
 
L.A.B. said:
It's RON.



RON, and still is, as the RON octane standard is the one commonly used outside the USA/Canada.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
Click to expand...

I knew that the MON [motor] standard generates lower numbers, compared to RON [research] According to the article linked above, RON is about 8 -12 octane points higher than MON. In the USA, we use Anti-Knock Index, which is RON + MON divided by two. So, for those of us in the USA, a 94 RON number would equate to about an 89 Anti-Knock Index number. That equates to a mid level blend in most of the USA. At sea level, Regular is generally 87 octane, Mid is 89 octane and Premium will be either 91 or 93 octane. This all based on the Anti-Knock Index. I know that around Denver [5,280 ASL] octane ratings are somewhat lower.
Am I wrong here? If not, I will edit the manual to reflect this.
 
chaztuna said:
Am I wrong here? If not, I will edit the manual to reflect this.
Click to expand...

Yes, US AKI/PON numbers are approximately 4 - 5 points lower than the equivalent RON octane.

Octane in British manuals and owner's handbooks especially older ones will be in RON numbers.
 
I have now completed over 90% of my Mk III Workshop Manual edit. I want to thank Les [L.A.B.] for the help he has given me on this project. I've been pestering him with a lot of emails lately. I have a question regarding the replacement of the Mk III air filter element. Section K3 states that this element should be replaced every 6,000 miles. I'm wondering if that is correct, or simply a holdover recommendation from the older paper filters?
The Mk III has a foam filter that is to be cleaned every 3,000 miles [section E10]

Charlie
 
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kommando said:
Clean every 3000, replace every 15 years after the foam disintegrates.
Click to expand...

Thank you for verifying my suspicions. The manual also tells you to clean the filter element with gasoline [petrol]. Does the filter actually last that long using gasoline? I would think that something like K&N air filter cleaner, or household cleaners like Fantastic or 409 would be safer.

I have another question. Section K17 mentions that the Mk III fuel tanks are secured at the rear with a cross strap 7 bolts. I know that my first Mk III Roadster used rubber insulators, the strap, nuts & flat washers. In Section F10 figure F19, it shows this. I'm wondering if the Interstate & Hi Rider still used the bolts without insulators in 1975? Is figure F19 correct or not?
 

Attachments

Think I used thinners or wd40 to clean it last time, as petrol now has some nasty chemicals in it including one banned from UK schools as being a cancer risk I try to reduce exposure. Thinks its benzene.
 
kommando said:
Think I used thinners or wd40 to clean it last time, as petrol now has some nasty chemicals in it including one banned from UK schools as being a cancer risk I try to reduce exposure. Thinks its benzene.
Click to expand...

Yes, benzene is a known carcinogen. It is often used to improve the octane rating of unleaded fuel. That said, if your gasoline contains ethanol, it won't contain benzene. Ethanol is also used as an octane booster. It has the added benefit of being much cheaper than alternative chemicals. The fact that the EPA, corn farmers & various environmental groups like it, helps the PR department of the "Big Oil" companies. We all know the down sides of ethanol laced fuels! :(
 
Looks like benzene levels have changed, max limit of 5% is now 1% but still allowed.
 
kommando said:
Looks like benzene levels have changed, max limit of 5% is now 1% but still allowed.
Click to expand...

Watch out for MTBE. Its' even worse than benzene. It is also used as an octane booster in unleaded gasoline [petrol]. Its' use has been banned in most of the USA. While none of us like what ethanol laced fuels do to our fiberglass [GRP] fuel tanks, once you read about the effects of MTBE, ethanol does not look so bad. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_ether

Nice to know that they are reducing the amount of benzene in your fuel. Hopefully, they are not simply substituting MTBE for the reduced benzene! MTBE is really bad, because it leeches into the ground water supply.
 
chaztuna said:
snipped That said, if your gasoline contains ethanol, it won't contain benzene. snipped
Click to expand...

Upon further review, my statement above is total hog wash! Kommando, where did you learn that benzene levels have been reduced to 1%? Perhaps it was in the article linked below? Very interesting read. I really liked the sections on how the words petrol and gasoline came into use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
 
http://ukpia.com has a pdf but it's old 2003 so now not sure current levels are but as it's still listed as a current hazard of petrol it is more than 0%.

http://ukpia.com/industry_issues/health-and-safety/petrol-and-health.aspx

What are the hazards of petrol?

  • Extremely flammable: burns fiercely once ignited, vapours potentially explosive.
  • Vapours are heavier than air, may travel long distances, collect in confined spaces.
  • Will cause lung damage if liquid enters the lungs.
  • Irritating to the skin.
  • Inhaling high concentrations of vapour may cause drowsiness and dizziness.
  • Contains benzene: exposure to high concentrations of benzene may cause cancer.
  • Contains toluene: exposure to high concentrations of toluene may pose a risk of harm on the unborn child.
 
I have another question. I'm over 95% done with the edit. I've been going over the beginning of the manual, as my editing skills with Acrobat Pro have improved quite a bit. The source PDF manual I'm working off of, is a real mess. Pages are jumbled, not always in order. There is a torque table. I have no idea where its' "supposed" to be. I believe it belongs in either section A or B. Can anyone tell me what section it belongs in? What page is should be? The copy of the torque table I have is poor. Anyone have a better scan? ;)
 
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