6V or 12V coils

L.A.B. said:

dynodave said:

maylar said:

For an EI system though, you can't use (2) 12 v coils in parallel, as it'll likely overload the ignition module.

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YES you can use 2...12v coils in parallel.

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But not with certain EI systems (such as Boyer or Pazon) where the current draw from two 12V coils would be likely to overload the box which is what I expect maylar was thinking of?

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Actually the basis of my research is for the RITA which at 98% dwell is the MOST likely to "overload" and the old black analog boyer is a mere 75-80% dwell AND for a period of time I KNOW the boyer output transistor was identical to the RITA. It is in the literature/tech notes from John Carpenter on how to hook the 2 12V coils using diodes if you run in parallel. If you run 2 12v coils in series of course you will expect a lower voltage and sometimes problematic "miss" on high throttle opening or hi-compression. The Rita came with a triple diode pack for triples. Yes they can be overloaded. If you run a old boyer stuffed up under the tank, then what do you expect... smoke!
If an old boyer is run in a mount such as I designed to replicate the RITA mount down in the air stream then you will get pretty good life. I did test and repair a RITA on a guys box (commando) that ran a 1 ohm Harley twin lead coil. It (the box) finally died after about 20 years, the coil was still good!!!!! I was shocked......It was another example of the truely superior product with superior cooling potential that the Rita was...if installed properly. The owner was not aware it was short dwell 1 ohm EI harley coil until I told him.
In general I would agree and recommend to be as conservative as possible since it gives a margin of safety for all the screw ups that folks can possibly put in. :mrgreen:

I somehow doubt that was the actual reason (that's what the 2MC is for). If it was, then why wait until 1971 to fit 6V coils?

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Six Dealers had had bricks thru their windows, and two had been murdered , by then . When New Commando owners couldnt get to work as it wouldnt start .
Had to push start it & needed a shower when they got there and were fired , unless they bought a Honda . :shock: :wink:

if there was much to be gained then BSA, Triumph and others would've used the same 'ballast resisted, 6V coils'

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THERE WASNT .

Wasnt Untill N V T that they produced electric starters ! :| ( if you overlook the Bandit Fiasco . Imagine how many A70 Bandits wouldve sold . or T100 Furys . Scrap the lot ! . MADNESS ! . )

Typical Auto parked outdoors in damp ends up at wreckers. ( at 15 + Yrs age ) The oxidation in the wiring clips , and the odd bit of Black Wire ( All the copper strands go black & the electrickery wont get thru )
and On a MOTORCYCLE that lives outdoors - The Dampness gets in the switchgear - Lucas Handlebar stuff. Anyway .

So When the Electric Hoof is Engaged , Voltage Drop & Impedance get the OHMS gooing for easy street , rather than doing any real work - Like Providing a Decent Spark .

Usually Remidied By Saturating the Connections & mechanisms in C R C or similar . Which Keeps the DAMP OUT . Allowing the busy little electrons To Get to Work .

Cars parked outdoors benefit enourmously from the CRC trip , starting first flip , rather than grinding the battery flat . BUT this is the besttest Comparison valid in the 6 V Coil debate .

A bleedy Great Spark, for STARTING . Even when the battery is not quite there .

If you want a Cheap Merc . The M104 six has two default confuser settings, one Full Rich . ( Drive Home on FULL CHOKE ) " Oh my lovely cars running like a cow and using ever so much petrol "
" Its Done 100.000 K . It Must Be Worn Out . I must get rid of it " . Actually , its Run In, olde ducke . A reboot'll get it doing 130+ again . CRC wouldve prevented the false signals ( readings AT the Computer )
due to impedance due to oxidation corrosion at primarilly the connectors . Remove , scrape / sand clean ( in extreme cases . ) AND correct CRUSH of spade teminals with pliers , L & R on Spade so EVEN .

They Should NOT be a LOOSE FIT , As Any Pommy Bike Rider Knows, but they thinkmits because of the vibration . Which is just as well , considering .
Weve all seen the insides of olde Lucase Handle Bar switchgear , Havnt We . Usually fit for a horror movie , perhaps .

ANYWAY , the Early M !!!s with the Alloy Tooned Intake have four Ignitors up under there hidden . The Big Heavy ( Mustve used Mk IV Zepher stuff ) wires can be BARE & Blacked for an inch or two .
So a cheap rough running one of these m get your elbow in & have a feel up there , 50 quid and a few days fettling youll be racing the Sierra Cosworths or whatever it is nowadas , again .

The 111 & 114 Are very Cosworth & P86 Derived , but using Tutonic Logic , More Durable , Better Materials & accuracy in construction . Without the removable cambox a xcooked one with a bowed head
might not be a good idea , But Illustrateds Manufacturerers Foibles & Logic ( Theyre Not Forseeing EVERY possable scenario 20 years down the track . Theyd rather sell you a new one Each Year ..

Some Cunning Snots do this so as to remain under warrenty . So Fixed Running Costs , No Overhauls ANYWHERE or ANYTHING , and presumably ( :shock: ) Full Dependability . No Emotional Envolvement
so if it gets run over by a truck , they select another. And cant tell the differance . Like a HONDA . :wink:

Matt Spencer said:

I somehow doubt that was the actual reason (that's what the 2MC is for). If it was, then why wait until 1971 to fit 6V coils?

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Six Dealers had had bricks thru their windows, and two had been murdered , by then . When New Commando owners couldnt get to work as it wouldnt start .
Had to push start it & needed a shower when they got there and were fired , unless they bought a Honda . :shock: :wink:

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Sounds like sheer fantasy! Maybe it could happen in Australia? In the UK we all bought Hondas.

Matt Spencer said:

L.A.B. said:

if there was much to be gained then BSA, Triumph and others would've used the same 'ballast resisted, 6V coils'

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THERE WASNT .

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:?:

Matt Spencer said:

Wasnt Untill N V T that they produced electric starters !

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Norton Electra, Triumph Tigress, Velocette Viceroy had electric starters before the T160 Trident.

Sheer Fantasy . RIGHT .

but allegorical
As You Say . you All bought Hondas .

Elec Foot . Did they work on a regular basis .
Though , the " Bonneville Lads " shunned Extra Weight , complexity , etc as supurflous , and detrimental to performance , in their missguided & patriotic youth .

Just a Pity something like a Selly or Rickman 850 Norton wasnt available at the Norton Dealers . Something that would have held its own with the Ducati's .
Even they eventually fitted a electric start . And theyre considered normal . a kickstarts not even an option on over 90 % of machines made today .

Ducati MADE there reputation , back then , at Imola & the Nielson Daytona thing . Norton had the ENGINE , still . then . Despite the press castigating it as ' Obsolette & Archaic ' When the Commando was first released

With Carbs that didnt clap out , Ignition that didnt fall apart , andafew other tricks ( The P R Spec head , for a ' Super Sports ' ; IF theyed had the nouse , they COULD have had a ' niche market ' ( Like Ducati then )
motorcycle as a Showroom Stealer . The Maintance Reliability issues etc put off AL but the Ardent Self Maintained Cognicent Anglophile .

Can remember seeing two blokes , one an Engineer ( Machinist ) outside Colemans ( N.Z. ) discussing the 850 . Last imported left in 78 . He ended up trading his 74 750 T140 against it . And youve not seen a more
imaculate Bonnie . But he WANTED the Commando . At the Time .
AND was aware it ' wouldnt ' be right untill he had assembled every last part ' Just So ; . Like a Ducati , then . He planed to over the next two years / 10 .000 miles . SO it would be RIGHT in the Future ,
as at that stage , it was generally thought thered be No More . Last Trident at Whites ( a75 on a slow boat ) sat there , heaerd the salesman being told in X came in he was to let him have it for 2.000
( 2.500 on the sticker ) a B 44 was the only other british bike in the Showroom .

The Blokes who got the Commando , took one in for service , running perfectly . As it was Honda boys there ( colemans ) too . and British Dealers were living on dreams , or GONE .
Two Blocks Down they Reset the Clearances & Ign Correctly ( the shop had F'd it up - a few thou out ) DECIDED to see if theyed take less with No warrenty as he didnt want them touching it .

I think the Final Deal was the Bonnie & $ 500 , As it Sat , Registered ( taxed ) and warrented ( MoT) , mighty relieved they WOULDNT have to Go Near the place Again .
I think one of his mates got the Bonnie within a week or so , as it was Affordable on H.P. ' at cost plus 200 ' So all ended well , if your a flagerent masochist .

The Anglophiles muttered and fumed and glareed at the ' wonder toys ' nipping about town . And the Cops thought anyone on a Britis Bike was a hoodlum , murderer , and not to be trusted .
Even the high acedemic achievers when they left school , Having oogled the teachers Silver Commando and gotten motorcycle maintance lectures there . Halfthe country still hadnt forgiven
the Japs their attrocities , or forgotten their subs cruising the district .

SO , when I was a nipper a lot of the machines , and All the Big ones , were British . Along with the cars . ( Yank cars were almost Rare - like german & french ones ) By 70 the Japs had taken
over the showrooms with the tiddlers . By the Time of the Z1 , I think it was a year before I saw one on the ROAd , they were always pretty rare as EXPENSIVE ( No Opposition- Bar Ducati )

BSA's collapse was FRONT PAGE NEWS on the HERALD in N.Z. five years later , theyed about ALL GONE . How Was that POSSABLE ?

re; "The reason for the resistor was to stop full battery voltage from going to the coil and overheating it*. I believe normal coil voltage on a 12 volt system would be about 9 volts"

It is slightly more technical than that, I once read that ballast resistors/ Voltage Stabilizers were fitted to most tin boxes because the all the standard fitment coils were only 9 volts, and when the battery was a little flat it also prevented the starter motor from taking ALL the available power from a rundown battery where there would not be enough juice left to turn both the starter motor and power the coils.
Don’t forget the starter motor on a 12 volt system was also usually 9 volts, also if you have the modern equivalent of electronic ignition it will NOT fire the engine if only 6 volts is left in the battery, whereas with a contact breaker points set up it will :!: :shock:

Bernhard said:

It is slightly more technical than that, I once read that ballast resistors/ Voltage Stabilizers were fitted to most tin boxes because the all the standard fitment coils were only 9 volts, and when the battery was a little flat it also prevented the starter motor from taking ALL the available power from a rundown battery where there would not be enough juice left to turn both the starter motor and power the coils.

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The electric starter does draw system voltage down but in the case of the 850 Mk3 Commando, T160 Trident (and various other vehicles) when the starter motor is in operation full battery voltage from the starter solenoid (or relay, T160) is fed directly to the (normally 6V) coils through a ballast resistor bypass wire so the coils get more than their rated voltage for as long as the starter motor continues to operate and coil/spark energy is thus 'boosted'.

Don’t forget the starter motor on a 12 volt system was also usually 9 volts, also if you have the modern equivalent of electronic ignition it will NOT fire the engine if only 6 volts is left in the battery, whereas with a contact breaker points set up it will :!: :shock:

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The starter may be able to spin with only 9v but on every thing I ever worked on the starter cable went from the battery, to the solenoid to the starter. There was no voltage reducing device in that part of the system. On the ignition side of the system the was always (prior to EFI systems) a ballast resistor in the loop, and as I said, and Les concurred there is a bypass loop that comes into play on the start position. I just went through this whole thing on a '61 Ford Galaxie, they had an inline resistor right off the ignition switch. These are simple systems. The simplicity starts to diminish when we get into electric ignitions and fuel delivery. If my memory serves me correctly I think Chrysler had issues with their ballasts going bad and trashing their electronic ignitions. I feel as though I have taken this thread a little of track. Sorry

Pete