1972 ? Commando 750 Serial number

L.A.B. · Sep 2, 2015

Rohan said:
There is a 3 month gap in possible sales, and you are saying it would have had no affect ??? !!!

Just to go back to this, you seem to have overlooked the fact that by far the biggest market was in the Northern Hemisphere, and except perhaps for California and a few southern US states, hardly anyone in their right mind is going to buy a new bike in the NH at that time of year so demand would have dropped off over the winter months! It may even have been a case of oversupply which would explain why many apparently '71 season bikes had '72 registrations/titles because bikes arriving at dealers at that time of year would be slow sellers.

Rohan · Sep 2, 2015

I haven't overlooked the fact that Australia, NZ (and possibly Sth America ?) were a large Commando market, in their summer months....

Be interesting to get a hold of Nortons dispatch records, and see what was what, wouldn't it. ??

And you do hear lots of reports of Nthn hemisphere owners getting their next years model before the New Year, so obviously some were being sold.
Hardy souls maybe !
Maybe the last 71 models were lingering in the showrooms, as suggested earlier here.

It would have been a big investment by Norton Villiers too, building all those bikes and not getting any payment for them
until after the Jan 72 announcement. At say a min of 1000 bikes per month, that would be $5m at least, and possibly double,
were Nortons really that strong that the bank wouldn't be hammering at their door for payment.

We'll have to keep an eye out for more of those with VINS over 150,000 and take a note of the month of production...

L.A.B. · Sep 2, 2015

Rohan said:
I haven't overlooked the fact that Australia, NZ (and possibly Sth America ?) were a large Commando market, in their summer months....

Well, I don't think NV sold many Commandos in South America?

Rohan said:
Be interesting to get a hold of Nortons dispatch records, and see what was what, wouldn't it. ??

Although somewhat unlikely.

Rohan said:
And you do hear lots of reports of Nthn hemisphere owners getting their next years model before the New Year, so obviously some were being sold.

Do I/we?

Rohan said:
It would have been a big investment by Norton Villiers too, building all those bikes and not getting any payment for them
until after the Jan 72 announcement. At say a min of 1000 bikes per month, that would be $5m at least, and possibly double,
were Nortons really that strong that the bank wouldn't be hammering at their door for payment.

Why would you think NV wouldn't get paid for 3 months? I think bikes would be shipped to the importer so it would be down to the importer to pay the factory and then distribute bikes to dealers.
There obviously wasn't any 3 month gap between the end of '71 production and the beginning of '72 production so '71 stock would still be arriving at dealers right up to the introduction of the new models and I suppose any excess old model year stock could always be offloaded in the Southern Hemisphere if necessary?
Motorcycle sales are certainly seasonal and this obviously had to be planned for-but it's not as if Norton had just started up in business selling motorcycles-as they had been doing it for many years.

Rohan said:
We'll have to keep an eye out for more of those with VINS over 150,000 and take a note of the month of production...

As far as we know, 1972 production started at serial number 200001 and not on a particular day of the year.

Rohan · Sep 2, 2015

L.A.B. said:
Why would you think NV wouldn't get paid for 3 months?

Because the Dealers weren't selling any of the 1972 models until after Jan 1972,
so they wouldn't pay be paying NV until they had the customers $$ in their fist ??
Unless you KNOW that they had to pay regardless. And can provide evidence for ...

You seem to be keeping on with this 'business as usual' theme, but Nortons manufacturing/stockpiling/holding
the new models until Jan 1972 was something completely different to how they operated previously ?
Thats 3 months of manufacturing the new models, with no sales of them.
Maybe Berliners etc paid NV, and provided credit to their Dealers though (?).

In the computer business, withholding stock for even a week from a Dealer could cause financial distress. !
I'd find it difficult to accept that motorcycle businesses operated much differently... ?
Customers go elsewhere, and buy something else, unless they are really dedicated brand loyal.

L.A.B. · Sep 2, 2015

Rohan said:
L.A.B. said:

Why would you think NV wouldn't get paid for 3 months?

Click to expand...

Because the Dealers weren't selling any of the 1972 models until after Jan 1972,

No but they would still be selling '71 stock right up to the introduction of the new models so once again I will say there was no 3 month time lag.

Rohan said:
so they wouldn't pay be paying NV until they had the customers $$ in their fist ??
Unless you KNOW that they had to pay regardless. And can provide evidence for ...

I don't KNOW but then you don't either, but what you suggest couldn't have happened or they would have gone bust every year!

Rohan said:
You seem to be keeping on with this 'business as usual' theme, but Nortons manufacturing/stockpiling/holding
the new models until Jan 1972 was something completely different to how they operated previously ?

Again you seem to overlook the fact that it took several weeks for stock to arrive at its destination, it didn't happen overnight so there was obviously no "3 month wait".

Rohan · Sep 2, 2015

L.A.B. said:
but what you suggest couldn't have happened or they would have gone bust every year!

That might be close to the mark for some computer dealers. !
Not making payroll and rent each month must be a close run thing for some.

You ever read accounts of motorcycle dealers in the depression era.
Between each sale, they turned their hand to anything that would pay pennies...?

L.A.B. said:
Again you seem to overlook the fact that it took several weeks for stock to arrive at its destination, it didn't happen overnight so there was obviously no "3 month wait".

So that makes it only 2 & 1/2 months ??
Again, this is something quite different to how Nortons had previously operated.
Unless that stockpile of 1971 models lingered a long time ?
Be interesting to see Nortons dispatch books.
And the accounts. What happened to the accounts ? Did any survive.
Haw haw, I know...

L.A.B. · Sep 2, 2015

Rohan said:
L.A.B. said:

but what you suggest couldn't have happened or they would have gone bust every year!

Click to expand...

That might be close to the mark for some computer dealers. !
Not making payroll and rent each month must be a close run thing for some.

What on earth has computer dealers got to do with it? Do people only buy computers during the summer?

Rohan said:
You ever read accounts of motorcycle dealers in the depression era.

No, but anyone in the motorcycle retail business must know it's a seasonal job with most business done during the spring and summer months.

Rohan said:
L.A.B. said:

Again you seem to overlook the fact that it took several weeks for stock to arrive at its destination, it didn't happen overnight so there was obviously no "3 month wait".

Click to expand...

So that makes it only 2 & 1/2 months ??

If '72 production began in October then early shipments would spend several weeks in transit before arriving at their destination in the US presumably sometime around Dec'71/Jan '72 so could not have been stock lying around in a warehouse unsold for three months as you keep suggesting.

Rohan · Sep 2, 2015

L.A.B. said:
If '72 production began in October then early shipments would spend several weeks in transit before arriving at their destination in the US presumably sometime around Dec'71/Jan '72 so could not have been stock lying around in a warehouse unsold for three months as you keep suggesting.

There is a full 3 months between beginning manufacturing them, and any sales of them.
Thats not what Nortons did before, all through recorded history....

You'd be surprised, the business model for computers and motorcycles can't be much different,
all the ingredients are pretty much the same, its just the product is different ?
Maybe its not quite so much a leisure industry - but then again maybe its more ?
Its only the lack of supply I was noting the affects of, having had some experience with this...

And later, Nortons and Triumphs, and the NVT saga and the Meriden sit-in,
and subsequent lack of spares that put so many bikes off the road is legend in British Motorcycle history.
Its all gelling together, the ying is meeting the yang....

L.A.B. · Sep 3, 2015

I don't believe you have a clue what Norton "did before", or after, and I think your reasoning borders on the idiotic if you think it did not take several weeks to ship bikes halfway around the world at any time during Norton's history, and nothing whatsoever to do with computer sales-so there seems little point discussing this further.

Rohan · Sep 3, 2015

You appear to be unable to see the wood for the trees,
and that 3 months of manufacturing with no sales is unlike what Nortons did before.
Where did they stockpile all those bikes, or where were they shipped to and then not sold until Jan ?
Why did they even do that ?? Was there a problem ?

I have a Model 7 that was manufactured in Nov 1949, and the new owner had possesion of it before the New Year.
It is of course a 1950 model.

L.A.B. · Sep 3, 2015

Rohan said:
You appear to be unable to see the wood for the trees,
and that 3 months of manufacturing with no sales is unlike what Nortons did before.

There's no suggestion whatsoever that sales stopped for three months. How you reach that conclusion is beyond reason.

Rohan said:
Where did they stockpile all those bikes, or where were they shipped to and then not sold until Jan ?

If the bikes were "in transit" for several weeks as they obviously must have been if sent by ship and road (as I seriously doubt they airfreighted bikes around the world) then they wouldn't have been stockpiled for 3 months.

Rohan said:
I have a Model 7 that was manufactured in Nov 1949, and the new owner had possesion of it before the New Year.

So could have taken up to 8 weeks to get there!
My last word on this as I think you are just being argumentative for the sake of it.

Rohan · Sep 3, 2015

L.A.B. said:
There's no suggestion whatsoever that sales stopped for three months. How you reach that conclusion is beyond reason.

Isn't that what was pointed out before ??
Thats why the Jan 1972 date was applied to the VIN 200,000+ bikes ??

Or, is there a list of VINs someplace that put VIN 200,000 at October 1971 ??
Maybe we have been labouring under a misunderstanding of dates....

Rohan · Sep 3, 2015

Yes, from much earlier in this thread.

So, what is "an official release date" ??
Could someone have bought a 1972 model before this date ?

Rohan said:
Several of the many lists around (how can there be so many different versions ?) put 200,001 as at Jan 1972.
What happened to the 3 months of 1972 production at the end of 1971 ??
Or is that Jan date not correct, and they started making 1972 models in Sept 71.

L.A.B. said:
The date often appears to be the official release date, not the actual start of production,

Rohan · Sep 3, 2015

So, is anyone going to address the elephant in the room, and explain what is that Jan 1972 "Official Release Date" ?

And if that doesn't mean the new models were on the secret list before then, and therefore not for sale,
well what does it mean......

Anonymous · Sep 3, 2015

Rohan said:
So, is anyone going to address the elephant in the room, and explain what is that Jan 1972 "Official Release Date" ?

Sure, it was a day that most probably occured about 43 years and 9 months ago or almost 16,000 days ago.
I think jesterday's original query was most probably answered on page 1 re typo error.
Ta.
BTW Elephant, if they have their own rooms, probably don't have their own computers.

Rohan · Sep 3, 2015

From understanding comes knowledge, from knowledge comes understanding.

With no evidence (?) for this 'mistake', we are none the wiser.
In fact, it just raises more questions.
O to look at that dispatch book...

ILLF8ED · Sep 3, 2015

This kinda supports LAB, my first Commando 201123 was stamped Oct 1971. The single page copy I have of the '71 factory despatch shows 151703 assembled Nov 13, 1971 shipped Nov 30, 1971 to Berliner - a black roadster. That means '71 model year was still in production after the start of '72 model year. How's that for trying to make sense of production? The production sheet for the series 200180 to 200200 only show ship date, no assembly date. Dates not sequential with VIN and from Dec '71 to Mar '72. notably all went to UK locations.

Rohan · Sep 3, 2015

151703 assembled Nov 13, 1971

That supports what I said ?!

LAB told me I was muddling etc ....

And when was Commando 201123 sold ?

If it (and all 200,000 + Commandos) were +Jan 1972, then that 'Official Release date' comes into it.
And its not impossible that what happened in the USA and UK were different, just to complicate things.

L.A.B. · Sep 4, 2015

Rohan said:
151703 assembled Nov 13, 1971

Click to expand...

That supports what I said ?!

LAB told me I was muddling etc ....

Yet again, :roll: as I've already said, as far as is known, and what is generally accepted is that 1972 model production commenced from serial number 200001 therefore any overlap in production is irrelevant.
If, as you seem to think, the changeover to 1972 production occurred on a particular day of the year-then what is it?

Rohan · Sep 4, 2015

Have a look at what I actually said - and was suggesting all along.

I seem to think that they were producing 71 spec bikes into 1972,
AND producing 72 bikes for sale for that Jan 72 announcement date.
Like they did for the 850 models, where they were stockpiling/shipping them for the April 73 850 announcement,
AND still making the 750 models for sale, to give cash flow in the interim.

What we need now is confirmation that 72 bikes were ONLY available after Jan 72,
or not. That would confirm/deny this scheme of events.
Maybe the UK got a different plan to the USA ?

Rohan said:
Several of the many lists around (how can there be so many different versions ?) put 200,001 as at Jan 1972.
What happened to the 3 or 4 months of 1972 production at the end of 1971 ??
Or is that Jan date not correct, and they started making 1972 models in Sept 71.

You'd think that with the records being in the hands of the NOC, stuff like this should have been clarified 40 years ago.
Or since....

1972 ? Commando 750 Serial number

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