new ecu project

cliffa · Nov 24, 2023

@kanenas , maybe a dumb question, but what do you hope to achieve?

kanenas · Nov 24, 2023

The main thing I am after is a proper color in my spark plugs.
After that the plan will change.The next item to improve will be engine breathing.
The exhaust has been taken care of by Matt Capri since I bought the bike. Now son number 2
is a wizard in the intake area, he has done some crazy work at his company and he has agreed
to spend time on my bikes. I mentioned his company a few posts back.
He already has a head from my '74 850 and I have been looking
for 3d files of the 961, it would be the start of the model to feed to the computer.
I wish I could get my hands on real cad drawings but I know that would be impossible.
If the intake project takes too much time and the side project of putting my 850 together comes out first,
I will tear the 961 down, measure everything moving and work on the balancer, in my opinion
it requires total rework.

City Garage · Nov 24, 2023

kanenas said:
1. I was sent the service manual by Norton. The wiring diagram in it does not match what I have. A wiring diagram I found in this forum, published by Stu, matches what I have closely. I did thank Stu in this forum.
I read the service manual and many other pdfs on the 961. The technical info, things like how many teeth /degrees after the missing tooth marks TDC, is something I have not been able to find in the service book or other publishings, that's why I contacted Electrex.
2. I have stated that my ultimate goal is to install wideband sensors. I contacted SCS, they answered my questions and they said that, to go with 2 wideband sensors, I need a delta 900. the 900 does not fit under the seat.
3. The wiring diagram from Stu and other info point to the cam sensor being a Hall effect sensor and the crank sensor being a VR sensor. I believe the difference is the proximity of the crank sensor to the alternator.
4. The crank signal wheel looks like it is a 36-1 type, but since I have not found a full picture of it in the service manual I can not be sure,also it might have 2 missing teeth. The cam wheel I could not find. It should have just one slot, but there could be more.
This and other info on the wheels is necessary for programming an ecu.
5-6. As already mentioned, they are definitely not the same part, also they are different type. The cam is a Hall effect, 3 wires,output a 5V square wave, the crank is a VR, a simple coil, 2 wires, putting out a sinusoidal wave form that can reach quite high peaks and requires post processing to become an acceptable input to the ECU. As stated above, the reason is that the sinusoidal wave can be filtered easier from alternator interference
than a low amplitude square wave.
7. I am afraid you do not have a lot of experience programming ECU's, a lot more info is required in order to properly program one.
8. I know about the 4 outputs for the stepper motor. Actually at this moment I am looking more at the speeduino rather than microsquirt and their board has mounting holes for a stepper motor sub board.
9. Remounting the battery was done a while back, sorry, I forgot to send pictures, I guess soon I will make amends. My regulator was burned thru stupidity, when moving the battery location I momentarily reversed the cable polarity, I guess I was lucky the regulator was the only casualty. My coil was victim of vibration. Proof of the vibration was that the mounting bracket for it had broken in 2 about a year before the coil finally died. my suspicion on the vibration is that more than 80% of my riding is on a highway, most of the time between 5000 and 5500 rpm. Re ecu access, Stu's help was helpful and I am thankful, alas I could not complete the Omex access. Apparently the dealer maps4000 software is different than the maps4000 one can download from the Omex site, also I have no .gin files. All that is needed for the software to register the ECU, that is needed before accessing it.
10. Injector flow rate, preferably a few points at different pressures, open time delay, undervoltage and even close delay time are very important in progamming the injection process in the ecu.
11. SCS might still be chosen if I determine that I can live with only one wideband sensor. As I have said before, my map runs rich, that is clearly visible in the spark plugs. The reason for that is that when Matt Capri installed his exhaust he modified the fuel map, then he closed shop and I lost contact with him well before the end of my break-in period. Yes, I absolutely agree with you about a dyno, if one comes to the island I will definitely try it, but I will not put the bike in a boat for a 5000 + mile trip (round trip), also I already have had pretty good success with just datalogging, albeit somewhat extensively. If I had a dyno and the current maps I would consider staying with narrow bands, but because I don't, WB's make it considerably easier to close in on a descent map.

You took a lot of time to voice your concerns and I appreciate it I hope you take the time to view my answers, I too tried to respond to each comment as best as I could. I don't like to give the impression that I just ask silly and repetitive questions with answers all around me, hopefully I succeeded availing at least some of that.

best regards,
Demitri Economou

Your explanation is exactly why I brought all those things up about your issues. You created them then came to the forum looking for help without being upfront about what took place and also never came back to let everyone know what took place which is probably why you are getting limited responses. I brought them up because outside of Stu we are one of the few shops that work on 961's and also deal with the tuning.

You bring up Matt Capri. So if you got the SBN exhaust and tune installed that was years ago because he closed up shop sometime in 2016. So your bike has been running the same map since then and you have a dark plug? Well Id rather have a rich running 961 than lean which is why you see most of the exhausts discolored.

You also stated that a Dyno wasn't available or 2500 miles away and that's not true You have Revtek and they do motorcycle tuning using Dynojet

1. Again there are plenty of pictures and resources you just need to look. Also if our shop was going to undertake such a project we would look at the components in person and not rely on pictures

Look here https://www.accessnorton.com/pages/Modern-Norton-Resources/ and find clutch removal and you'll see on page 5 a great picture of the trigger wheel. Also if you have the trigger wheel you can figure out the degree yourself. You can confirm where TDC is and all the information you say you are looking for especially if you know the degree of the engine.

2. Once the map is created why the need for wide-band sensors? Not even Vance and Hines leave the sensors in after tuning. Again once tuning is complete no need for the sensors and the map is set. There is no autotune on the fly. This isn't a race bike or even a performance engine so the returns on what you say you want to do without a dyno is questionable. You can get an aftermarket sensor to get data if you want to. This is one of the kits we use. https://pe-ltd.com/product/wideband/

3. Ok so you know what the sensors are, then why all the need for technical data the doesn't matter again all the sensors are so common that you can get them anywhere even the crank sensor. We get them from https://pe-ltd.com/product/variable-reluctance-vr-sensor/

4. Look here https://www.accessnorton.com/pages/Modern-Norton-Resources/ and find clutch removal and you'll see on page 5 a great picture of the trigger wheel. Missing two

5-6. If you look what I said was "Cam and speed sensors are the same part" and "crank sensor is from Electrec as you know" and great you know how a sensor works.

7. you are right I know nothing about programming or tuning ECU's You will have to call all my customers that we did ECU upgrades for and let them I just got lucky.

8. Ok great. But since I don't know anything about tuning just keep that IAC in place and good luck with tuning.

9. Im exhausted trying to reply to all this fluff. There are maps available along with files

10. Again the information is available.

11. See #2

Good luck with the ECU. Too many hours and money of trial and error when the simple fix is available just to lean out your bike.

I suggest you get with REVTEK who is on the Island and has a dyno.

kanenas · Nov 24, 2023

TonyA,
THANK YOU for mentioning REVTEK! I did not know they existed, had not checked for a few years and the subject just did not come up in my very small circle of motorcycle friends!
Calling them tomorrow! Perhaps I will not have to build a whole new ecu, or, if I do, tuning will be quick!!!!
Regarding the rest of the items, I will spare us both from rehashing the torture of sensor details, ecu details, wideband vs narrowband, how maps are used, where the pictures can be found, how
many resource pdfs I downloaded etc.

Thanks again for REVTEK

d.

TonyA · Nov 25, 2023

kanenas said:
TonyA,
THANK YOU for mentioning REVTEK! I did not know they existed, had not checked for a few years and the subject just did not come up in my very small circle of motorcycle friends!
Calling them tomorrow! Perhaps I will not have to build a whole new ecu, or, if I do, tuning will be quick!!!!
Regarding the rest of the items, I will spare us both from rehashing the torture of sensor details, ecu details, wideband vs narrowband, how maps are used, where the pictures can be found, how
many resource pdfs I downloaded etc.

Thanks again for REVTEK
d.

Hi Kanenas , It was Lance at City Garage who gave this information . Thanks Lance !

kanenas · Apr 1, 2024

Well, it has been a while since I started this, but now there is an update. about 2 months were spent researching numerous options and almost 2 more months were spent studying speeduino / arduino type boards. I was ready to go with an arduino but in the end we could not find any heavy duty options and there is a very definite need for that. Yesterday the final decision was made and an order was placed for a microsquirt 3 and two SLC free wide band controllers. Mega/micro squirt has many years of hardware upgrades and they have been good to me, so that is the final choice.
Hope to send more updates soon

d.

cliffa · Apr 1, 2024

kanenas said:
Well, it has been a while since I started this, but now there is an update. about 2 months were spent researching numerous options and almost 2 more months were spent studying speeduino / arduino type boards. I was ready to go with an arduino but in the end we could not find any heavy duty options and there is a very definite need for that. Yesterday the final decision was made and an order was placed for a microsquirt 3 and two SLC free wide band controllers. Mega/micro squirt has many years of hardware upgrades and they have been good to me, so that is the final choice.
Hope to send more updates soon
d.

Thanks for the update. Please keep them coming as you proceed.

kanenas · Apr 8, 2024

Ok, my V3 miccrosquirt has just arrived. It is much smaller than the 630 omex. It should be getting installed soon, still need the wide band sensors and map sensors. Presently collecting setup information and looking for some help with crank sensor and cam sensor settings, things like offset / lag / delay to tdc, don't exactly know the delta tems and if they talk degrees, teeth or msec etc etc . If some nice folk share some of their delta 400 info on these two items it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
d.

kanenas · May 28, 2024

kanenas said:
Ok, my V3 miccrosquirt has just arrived. It is much smaller than the 630 omex. It should be getting installed soon, still need the wide band sensors and map sensors. Presently collecting setup information and looking for some help with crank sensor and cam sensor settings, things like offset / lag / delay to tdc, don't exactly know the delta tems and if they talk degrees, teeth or msec etc etc . If some nice folk share some of their delta 400 info on these two items it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
d.

A quick update on the project: Still waiting for the conversion of the down pipes to 18mm threads, for the wideband o2 sensors. Added a bluetooth chip to the microsquirt, no need for wired connections to the cpu, downloaded the first (but incomplete) config file. Added a bunch of connections from the microsquirt to the current omex system, hope to see the crank and cam sensor signals in the microsquirt tunertstudio while running with the omex, after that I will try to synchronize the injection and ignition pulses to the omex, I will be using a scope for that. Getting the basic timing is the first thing needed, so I am looking for pointers to any info in that area, things like teeth / degrees to tdc, injector angles, ignition angles etc, almost aything would speed things up.
best regards,
d.

TonyA · May 29, 2024

Quite the project you are undertaking .

new ecu project

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