new ecu project

[kanenas]

I finally decided to go all in into what i call
"the 961 ecu project".

What I am after is an easily configurable / reconfigurable system, with easily changeable control settings, maps and ignition tables.

The means is still up in the air, I expect it to be one of the following:
1. standard installed ecu
2. delta 400 ecu
3. Megasquirt / microsquirt
4. possible other unknown at the moment ecu.

Regarding the standard ecu I was wondering why signing a simple waiver would not satisfy the legaleze crap and pave the way to clear access,
alas, that would be something that makes sense, so it's chances are obviously not good......
Regarding the delta, I would ask all who bought it to comment on performance, reliability, frequency of tinkering and results of tinkering and of course anything else they would like to add....
Regarding the mega/micro squirt, I have built two systems, about 30000 100% trouble free miles, with improved performance throughout the rpm
range and an almost 10% increase in mileage in two mercedes 560SEL'S of the late 80's, but both systems were only on the fuel side, still I know I can build a good system with these ecus.
Regarding something new, my son always keeps coming with great ideas ( just check IBR ( i build race cars) and TRONIX 3D), no he does NOT
need more business but he might think up and send me something.

So the first thing I need to do is see what my cpu already has. my cpu is an omex 630, wired in a 2015 EURO3 harness. I am able to see the ecu thru the latest maps4000 software and the serial to usb cable i got, the first
file it asks is a 1N31 file and then it specifically asks for gin files!!
So Maps4000 apparently wants to "install" my omex before accessing it!!!
I knbew that I was blocked from changing anything on my cpu, but why is it that I cvan not see what it does?
Is there a way to accomplish this? are there any files available that can help accomplish this?

If there is anything of perhaps limited accessibility, or if someone felt more comfortable sharing info
on a more personal level, please feel free to contact me at:

demitri@bearmachineryinc.com

thanks in advance,
d.







Maps4000 wants to "install" my ecu before accessing it

 

[CR961]

Most excellent undertaking.
May I ask what priorities you have set out for the finished running engine?
And will the modification be limited only to the ECU? Or will the intake, throttle, injectors or exhaust also be changed?

 

[kommando]

If you have 2 megasquirt installations then stick with that. If you want you can also try.

Secu3

https://secu-3.org/en/ based in Ukraine

or

https://speeduino.com/home/ based in US and Australia

 

[kanenas]

ething else.

Most excellent undertaking.
May I ask what priorities you have set out for the finished running engine?
And will the modification be limited only to the ECU? Or will the intake, throttle, injectors or exhaust also be changed?

The first task would be to lean out the fuel map. The bike has always run rich because it has a *very nice* non standard exhaust.
The map was originally modified (conservatively) at the dealer who later became unavailable.
The second task would involve IBR and a total modification of the intake system, they have some unbelievable work in that area,
I will only hope my son will have some time.
If I am still alive after these two, I will think of something else.

 

[TonyA]

ething else.

The first task would be to lean out the fuel map. The bike has always run rich because it has a *very nice* non standard exhaust.
The map was originally modified (conservatively) at the dealer who later became unavailable.
The second task would involve IBR and a total modification of the intake system, they have some unbelievable work in that area,
I will only hope my son will have some time.
If I am still alive after these two, I will think of something else.

Hello again , I think we determined that your bike was upgraded from the SC Typhoon ecu to the newer OMEX ? This means you should have a adapter harness in place at your ecu plug with the added shut down relay ? At any rate , have you considered using a Dyno Jet PCV to adjust your fuel maps ? This should be final tuned by a Dyno Jet shop on the dyno for best results. This may be the lowest cost for you . If you do decide to spend on the SCS Delta 400 , you can eliminate the added on harness , shutdown relay and tilt switch flat pack that gets added when you upgrade. This will clean up your bike a lot . The SCS Delta 400 should be a direct replacement with your original harness and all of the functions , tilt , neutral , sidestand , will be handled by the ecu directly . When you get a chance , can you verify that this is in fact how your bike is currently configured ? Also , don't forget that Stu Bodycote can re-map your current ecu he's got the equipment for this OMEX version .

 

[City Garage]

Reinventing the wheel with an off-brand ECU won't improve the 961 unless you have improved on so many other issues. Tuning the ECU is the least of the worries but only if you have a good dyno guy who understands the fuel tables etc. If your bike is already set up for an SCS I wouldn't think twice as the usability of their software along the with maps upgrade solved the off-idle hiccups as long as the other issues are fixed/addressed. Taking out the IAC plus plugging the crossover solved many issues as well. The intakes and exhaust are not the issue with the engine. It's simply underpowered/undersized by design. Lastly, I would run a 961 as rich as needed for longevity as heat already is an issue.

If you are going to tackle an ECU from scratch then I would suggest you get the big bore kit and do the whole thing at once.

 

[Stephen_Spencer]

Hello again , I think we determined that your bike was upgraded from the SC Typhoon ecu to the newer OMEX ?

Out of my comfort zone - but this may help in some way. This ECU swap was carried out on my 2015 CR dual seat in 2017, under warranty, using this TSB.

 

[Gojuu]

The ongoing support I have got from SCS is sensational, get the delta 400.

Seriuously consider blocking the balance tube. Personally, its the first mod I would do on any 961.

 

[kanenas]

Ok, the comments and input are starting to pour in, GRRRREAT
Now I need to clear up a couple of things:
First off, there is more than 2500 miles of ocean between the bike and the closest dyno.
Second, There is no dealer even remotely capable of doing anything on the 961 within 5000 miles from the bike.
The result of these two reality checks is that any work to be done will be done by yours truly.
The basic need is to modify the fuel map. I do not wish to change the ecu. I need to access the ecu,
put in my own map, run the bike, log the run, study the data, change some numbers in the map, redo until satisfied.
From my previous setup experience it is my belief that just sending the ecu to Stu would provide a better starting point,
a good map will take some time to develop and requires either a dyno or extensive running, datalogging, reconfiguring and redoing.
The quickest way would be to access the omex, put in my own tables, datalog, modify the tables, repeat. Talk of another ecu is on the table only because of the difficulty in that area, my previous experience with such beasts and the very real possibility of switching to wideband O2 sensors.
Regarding the ecu itself, please note the bike is a 2016. I do have the tilt switch, the ecu power down relay, of course the omex connector, no obdii connector, but i believe all this is integrated into the main harness, I do not see a "connector to the main harness" as it was kindly posted two posts up, at least it is not visible when the seat is removed. If the connector exists, where can I find it and how can I get the pinout?

 

[TonyA]

Ok, the comments and input are starting to pour in, GRRRREAT
Now I need to clear up a couple of things:
First off, there is more than 2500 miles of ocean between the bike and the closest dyno.
Second, There is no dealer even remotely capable of doing anything on the 961 within 5000 miles from the bike.
The result of these two reality checks is that any work to be done will be done by yours truly.
The basic need is to modify the fuel map. I do not wish to change the ecu. I need to access the ecu,
put in my own map, run the bike, log the run, study the data, change some numbers in the map, redo until satisfied.
From my previous setup experience it is my belief that just sending the ecu to Stu would provide a better starting point,
a good map will take some time to develop and requires either a dyno or extensive running, datalogging, reconfiguring and redoing.
The quickest way would be to access the omex, put in my own tables, datalog, modify the tables, repeat. Talk of another ecu is on the table only because of the difficulty in that area, my previous experience with such beasts and the very real possibility of switching to wideband O2 sensors.
Regarding the ecu itself, please note the bike is a 2016. I do have the tilt switch, the ecu power down relay, of course the omex connector, no obdii connector, but i believe all this is integrated into the main harness, I do not see a "connector to the main harness" as it was kindly posted two posts up, at least it is not visible when the seat is removed. If the connector exists, where can I find it and how can I get the pinout?

OK got it , A 2016 so , should be a factory installed OMEX a first gen 961 Mk2 (no ABS) .

 

[City Garage]

Ok, the comments and input are starting to pour in, GRRRREAT
Now I need to clear up a couple of things:
First off, there is more than 2500 miles of ocean between the bike and the closest dyno.
Second, There is no dealer even remotely capable of doing anything on the 961 within 5000 miles from the bike.
The result of these two reality checks is that any work to be done will be done by yours truly.
The basic need is to modify the fuel map. I do not wish to change the ecu. I need to access the ecu,
put in my own map, run the bike, log the run, study the data, change some numbers in the map, redo until satisfied.
From my previous setup experience it is my belief that just sending the ecu to Stu would provide a better starting point,
a good map will take some time to develop and requires either a dyno or extensive running, datalogging, reconfiguring and redoing.
The quickest way would be to access the omex, put in my own tables, datalog, modify the tables, repeat. Talk of another ecu is on the table only because of the difficulty in that area, my previous experience with such beasts and the very real possibility of switching to wideband O2 sensors.
Regarding the ecu itself, please note the bike is a 2016. I do have the tilt switch, the ecu power down relay, of course the omex connector, no obdii connector, but i believe all this is integrated into the main harness, I do not see a "connector to the main harness" as it was kindly posted two posts up, at least it is not visible when the seat is removed. If the connector exists, where can I find it and how can I get the pinout?

Can't do a new ECU map without a dyno. The time saved by installing a SCS 400 with a current map and upgrades is well worth the trouble because you will have issue going another route and the response will be you should install a known ECU that works and that you dont need a jumper for

 

[Gojuu]

Understand the need for a dyno, but the SCS unit is also comparable with a data logger.

Having access to the real time logged data from the bike is likely to be of use - especially if you are that far from a Dyno.

 

[acotrel]

I suggest with this sort of thing you need to start at the end and work backwards The performance requirements and relevant regulations determine what you do. The exhaust system and cam timings determine the performance characteristics and also affect the noise levels. Combustion conditions in the cylinder head are affected by the balance of fuel mixture and ignition advance and compression rato. When I tune a bike I start with the exhaust system, then set the ignition advance and adjust the fuel mixture to suit the combination.
As I understand it, the guys who ride in the Australian Superbike Series used to remove the Exup from the exhaust system. Heat build-up might be the most important limiting factor.
I do not know if the ignition advance curves currently in use were developed by calculation or by trial and error. I saw somewhere that a claim was made that it is impossible to develop an equation for the curve, however many people have never used matrix algebra.

 

[City Garage]

I suggest with this sort of thing you need to start at the end and work backwards The performance requirements and relevant regulations determine what you do. The exhaust system and cam timings determine the performance characteristics and also affect the noise levels. Combustion conditions in the cylinder head are affected by the balance of fuel mixture and ignition advance and compression rato. When I tune a bike I start with the exhaust system, then set the ignition advance and adjust the fuel mixture to suit the combination.
As I understand it, the guys who ride in the Australian Superbike Series used to remove the Exup from the exhaust system. Heat build-up might be the most important limiting factor.
I do not know if the ignition advance curves currently in use were developed by calculation or by trial and error. I saw somewhere that a claim was made that it is impossible to develop an equation for the curve, however many people have never used matrix algebra.

HUH???

 

[kanenas]

Ok, not many posts here but I have been working. From the looks of the current situation it does not seem likely that I can get access to my Omex 630, if any one has any suggestions, PLEASE make them. Additionally, since my long
range plans include wide band O2 sensors, the Delta Ecu is at least temporarily sidelined, the 400 can only handle one WB, the 900 is physically too big for a 961. A new development is the discovery of the Speeduino project, THANKS KOMMANDO it shows a lot of possibilities and I have been looking closely at it!
All of the above is still at the early stages. I am still looking for possible fuel and timing maps and ways to talk to my current ecu, it would definitely save time, so is there anything like it out there?

 

[kanenas]

As research expands I need information on sensor type and signal wheel type for both the crank sensor and the cam sensor. Have asked Electrec and still searching Bosch data sheets for the sensors, but still need the wheel info for both. Does anyone have any pictures or any other info on these items?
thanks in advance,
d.

 

[TonyA]

As research expands I need information on sensor type and signal wheel type for both the crank sensor and the cam sensor. Have asked Electrec and still searching Bosch data sheets for the sensors, but still need the wheel info for both. Does anyone have any pictures or any other info on these items?
thanks in advance,
d.

I am reading your posts with interest , but unfortunately I don't have experience to share .

 

[VMI]

As research expands I need information on sensor type and signal wheel type for both the crank sensor and the cam sensor. Have asked Electrec and still searching Bosch data sheets for the sensors, but still need the wheel info for both. Does anyone have any pictures or any other info on these items?
thanks in advance,
d.

I don’t know what the readings for the Norton ECU are for the cam and engine speed sensors are and I don’t know what the repair manual states. I can only tell you from experience of working with cars with BOSCH ECU and CAM sensors that there are 3 wires (as in Norton) a power, ground, and signal back to the ECU. The 2 outside wires are power a(voltage) and ground (battery negative) and the middle wire the signal back to the ECU. In automotive field that I’m use to for checking CAM sensor wad to the for 5 volts on the power and ground at the terminal to CAM sensor, then check the same 5 volt signal but connect the meter ground on the engine, the signal wire is checking the wire continuity from sensor connector to ECU (ECU disconnected). I noticed on my 2013 961 CR that there is a resistor on the wire side of the connector to the CAM sensor, maybe for reducing the voltage to the CAM sensor.
I think you can back probe ( with a volt meter positive on terminal and negative on engine) the middle wire of the CAM sensor terminal (still connected to sensor) and start the engine and see what voltage reading you get and then raise RPM and see, then you’ll know. In the auto field the cam sensor is also use to let ECU know when to activate injectors.
From personal experience if you put the tilt sensor upside down the engine won’t start and the fault in ECU is for the cam sensor, but no MIL (malfunction indicator light) on. From the auto field when a engine turns over but doesn’t start, you activate the start and for about 20 seconds and release start mode (on motorcycles release start button) leave ignition ON and scan to see what faults come up and go there.
Hope this helps you

 

[City Garage]

As research expands I need information on sensor type and signal wheel type for both the crank sensor and the cam sensor. Have asked Electrec and still searching Bosch data sheets for the sensors, but still need the wheel info for both. Does anyone have any pictures or any other info on these items?
thanks in advance,
d.

Well, your research hasn't expanded to the service manual, wiring diagrams or the search function on the forum as all that information is there. Also with the bike right in front of you, you can physically see the sensors and figure things out if you are so set on going this route. Also why wouldn't you just look in the service book or look at all the previous research ALREADY done here?

again there are plenty of ECUs that work already with the bike once you get the components sorted. If you refuse to do that first to see where there are issues then you are only trolling and not actually contributing

I'm going to suggest before you ask the same questions over and over again do your own research in the forum as a lot of information is already here. Also, without access to a dyno trying to install a new ECU brand without the ability to map it under a controlled condition seems counterproductive at the least. Even with the best equipment creating a new map is very difficult which is why it's recommended you either have the OMEX unlocked or get the SCS.

Actually, I think you were told by Stu yours should be unlocked and if not he has the password for you

Wiring diagrams are useful to determine sensor types if you dont want to pull yours out or look at the list of sensor available

The signal wheel is a Norton part. pictures are in the manual or in any of the Coote manuals available here as well.

Cam and speed sensors are the same part

The crank sensor is from Electrec as you know

all these sensors can tell you the data you think you need just by doing some meter work and unless your ECU requires a different sensor then all that's a waste of time as each of these sensors is rather common

You will need to also map the stepper motor as well if you want to keep it. (Microsquirt will let you do 10 steps)

Now to address the other issues you have brought up

You stated you remounted the battery and would send pictures. Around the same time you had an issue with your voltage regulator which was an odd coincidence, then a coil pack issue, and again then asked about accessing the ECU in that thread as well. Again Stu offered to help

Then it was questions about the injectors. Why would you need flow data? and if you really know how to tune an ECU from scratch or know your way around components then you would be able to look up the injectors and find the flow rates easily

You say you want an easily accessed ECU that you can make changes to. Well then the SCS is the answer. You say you want to change maps? Why? Once a map is set for the setup it doesn't need to be changed unless you change something and then again you would need a dyno to help with resetting the map. Also, the dyno will have wide and narrow band sensors to help with AFR issues so again why go through all this trouble?

 

[kanenas]

1. I was sent the service manual by Norton. The wiring diagram in it does not match what I have. A wiring diagram I found in this forum, published by Stu, matches what I have closely. I did thank Stu in this forum.
I read the service manual and many other pdfs on the 961. The technical info, things like how many teeth /degrees after the missing tooth marks TDC, is something I have not been able to find in the service book or other publishings, that's why I contacted Electrex.
2. I have stated that my ultimate goal is to install wideband sensors. I contacted SCS, they answered my questions and they said that, to go with 2 wideband sensors, I need a delta 900. the 900 does not fit under the seat.
3. The wiring diagram from Stu and other info point to the cam sensor being a Hall effect sensor and the crank sensor being a VR sensor. I believe the difference is the proximity of the crank sensor to the alternator.
4. The crank signal wheel looks like it is a 36-1 type, but since I have not found a full picture of it in the service manual I can not be sure,also it might have 2 missing teeth. The cam wheel I could not find. It should have just one slot, but there could be more.
This and other info on the wheels is necessary for programming an ecu.
5-6. As already mentioned, they are definitely not the same part, also they are different type. The cam is a Hall effect, 3 wires,output a 5V square wave, the crank is a VR, a simple coil, 2 wires, putting out a sinusoidal wave form that can reach quite high peaks and requires post processing to become an acceptable input to the ECU. As stated above, the reason is that the sinusoidal wave can be filtered easier from alternator interference
than a low amplitude square wave.
7. I am afraid you do not have a lot of experience programming ECU's, a lot more info is required in order to properly program one.
8. I know about the 4 outputs for the stepper motor. Actually at this moment I am looking more at the speeduino rather than microsquirt and their board has mounting holes for a stepper motor sub board.
9. Remounting the battery was done a while back, sorry, I forgot to send pictures, I guess soon I will make amends. My regulator was burned thru stupidity, when moving the battery location I momentarily reversed the cable polarity, I guess I was lucky the regulator was the only casualty. My coil was victim of vibration. Proof of the vibration was that the mounting bracket for it had broken in 2 about a year before the coil finally died. my suspicion on the vibration is that more than 80% of my riding is on a highway, most of the time between 5000 and 5500 rpm. Re ecu access, Stu's help was helpful and I am thankful, alas I could not complete the Omex access. Apparently the dealer maps4000 software is different than the maps4000 one can download from the Omex site, also I have no .gin files. All that is needed for the software to register the ECU, that is needed before accessing it.
10. Injector flow rate, preferably a few points at different pressures, open time delay, undervoltage and even close delay time are very important in progamming the injection process in the ecu.
11. SCS might still be chosen if I determine that I can live with only one wideband sensor. As I have said before, my map runs rich, that is clearly visible in the spark plugs. The reason for that is that when Matt Capri installed his exhaust he modified the fuel map, then he closed shop and I lost contact with him well before the end of my break-in period. Yes, I absolutely agree with you about a dyno, if one comes to the island I will definitely try it, but I will not put the bike in a boat for a 5000 + mile trip (round trip), also I already have had pretty good success with just datalogging, albeit somewhat extensively. If I had a dyno and the current maps I would consider staying with narrow bands, but because I don't, WB's make it considerably easier to close in on a descent map.

You took a lot of time to voice your concerns and I appreciate it I hope you take the time to view my answers, I too tried to respond to each comment as best as I could. I don't like to give the impression that I just ask silly and repetitive questions with answers all around me, hopefully I succeeded availing at least some of that.

best regards,
Demitri Economou