Norton 750S tail light color in 1970

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Lorenzo

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Hi Everyone,
I noticed an old discussion around the color of the tail light for Norton 750s in 1970
I understand that the metal flake bikes had silver tail light, while those in yellow or black had black tail light

anyone can show a factory documentation, or articles showing it at that time?
while I can see many pictures on factory brochures with metal flake bikes and silver tail light, I cannot see any about a yellow or black 750s with a black tail light..

thanks for helping!
 
I guess you mean the tail light fairing, 06.1122 , and the protective rear number plate cowl, 06.0644 .
To me it looks like all '69 S-models had the silver color fairing. Others may have a definite answer.

- Knut
 
Lorenzo said:
I noticed an old discussion around the color of the tail light for Norton 750s in 1970

I cannot see any about a yellow or black 750s with a black tail light..
Click to expand...

Black (tank & panels) was '1971' (Roadster) and later.
 
what about the color of the brackets for the front fender? I can see it was silver on the ads, but I am wondering if for some reasons some of the 'S' bikes had black brackets (perhaps with yellow) tank?
 
L.A.B. said:
Black (tank & panels) was '1971' (Roadster) and later.
Click to expand...
I had a '69 (early) "S" and a '70 (midyear) Roadster. The "S" had a Ruby Red Fireflake tank and side covers with a silver metalflake taillamp "fairing"; the Roadster had a yellow tank/side cover set and a black taillamp fairing. I *believe* that the metalflake fairing was standard for the "S" models and changed to black for the Roadsters (the black was much cheaper to produce). There were a flurry of "special order" "S" models that were produced after the model was supposed to be ended; many of these were dispatched from the factory in June, '70. Many went to Berliner (US distributor), ironic since Berliner demanded that the "S" be dropped due to the extravagant warranty costs for the exhaust system failures. Many of these extraordinarily-late "S" Commandos had special colour schemes that came in for '70 or '71. There were a few "Roman Purple", "Emerald Green", and "Golden Bronze" (ref. Andover Norton copy of the factory dispatch records). So far as I know, there was only one "Signal Red" "S" ever built -- that one was shipped on the same day that there were a number of these "specials" going to Berliner Motors; the red one was dispatched to "Mike Berliner, New Jersey USA". (Brothers Joe and Mike Berliner were the owners and operators of Berliner Motors.) I've never seen any other Commando addressed to either of the brothers individually.
In theory, the metalflake finished taillamp fairing was only for proper production "S" Commandos. I do not know what was used on these late-produced "S" models.
To thoroughly stir things up, I could not find a record of a single "Canary Yellow" "S" being built at the factory in spite of a photograph of one being published on the 1970 Commando sales brochure. As most of us know, there are *hundreds* of yellow "S" models, some with Combat engines and frames built in 1972 -- and even some 850s -- around the world today.
 
Blewdy Yaink said:
I had a '69 (early) "S" and a '70 (midyear) Roadster. The "S" had a Ruby Red Fireflake tank and side covers with a silver metalflake taillamp "fairing"; the Roadster had a yellow tank/side cover set and a black taillamp fairing. I *believe* that the metalflake fairing was standard for the "S" models and changed to black for the Roadsters (the black was much cheaper to produce). There were a flurry of "special order" "S" models that were produced after the model was supposed to be ended; many of these were dispatched from the factory in June, '70. Many went to Berliner (US distributor), ironic since Berliner demanded that the "S" be dropped due to the extravagant warranty costs for the exhaust system failures. Many of these extraordinarily-late "S" Commandos had special colour schemes that came in for '70 or '71. There were a few "Roman Purple", "Emerald Green", and "Golden Bronze" (ref. Andover Norton copy of the factory dispatch records). So far as I know, there was only one "Signal Red" "S" ever built -- that one was shipped on the same day that there were a number of these "specials" going to Berliner Motors; the red one was dispatched to "Mike Berliner, New Jersey USA". (Brothers Joe and Mike Berliner were the owners and operators of Berliner Motors.) I've never seen any other Commando addressed to either of the brothers individually.
In theory, the metalflake finished taillamp fairing was only for proper production "S" Commandos. I do not know what was used on these late-produced "S" models.
To thoroughly stir things up, I could not find a record of a single "Canary Yellow" "S" being built at the factory in spite of a photograph of one being published on the 1970 Commando sales brochure. As most of us know, there are *hundreds* of yellow "S" models, some with Combat engines and frames built in 1972 -- and even some 850s -- around the world today.
Click to expand...
I've always believed that the black tail light fairing came in with the introduction of the Roadster in 1970, but I have seen some examples with metalflake silver fairings. I can't recall seeing an 'S' Type with a black fairing though.
Interesting comment regarding yellow bikes - All the 'S' Type survivors I've seen have been metalflake; predominantly Royal Blue, followed by Red and Emerald Green.
My understanding is for '69 only Blue & Red flake were available.
My May '70 'S' Type was originally Emerald Green (went to Elite Motors, London). No idea what colour the tail light fairing was as it's long gone.
 
B+Bogus said:
I've always believed that the black tail light fairing came in with the introduction of the Roadster in 1970, but I have seen some examples with metalflake silver fairings. I can't recall seeing an 'S' Type with a black fairing though.
Interesting comment regarding yellow bikes - All the 'S' Type survivors I've seen have been metalflake; predominantly Royal Blue, followed by Red and Emerald Green.
My understanding is for '69 only Blue & Red flake were available.
My May '70 'S' Type was originally Emerald Green (went to Elite Motors, London). No idea what colour the tail light fairing was as it's long gone.
Click to expand...
Thank you for this info. In the US, we were told that the only choices available for a '69 "S" were the Ruby Red Fireflake and the Saphire/Pacific Blue Fireflake finishes. (It is possible is that others were available regularly in other markets.) At the same time, there were "plain metalflake" silver Commandos (later called "Fastback" models) or silver with a translucent top coat applied over (or applied first into a mold if for a gelcoated glassfibre tank). The "R" models might have had blue available but the only ones I've seen photographed "modern" or period were red fireflake. My first Commando was a '69 "S" -- engine number approx. 500 after the quoted "S" built -- with Ruby Red paint; I had seen photos of the blue and was told that it was late coming to the market and so only red was available at the time. On later trips to my dealer, I did see blue "S" models in stock.
I am only guessing but it may have been that there were production holdups with the blue and, although both red and blue were shown and quoted to be available for '69, in practice, only red was available for a short time during the early days; perhaps, the "R" was planned for blue but it never happened. Again, only guesses and my dealer may have been trying to sell a red one that he had on his floor and was trying to deflect a buyer's wish for a blue one.
There was a lot of turmoil about the "S" in the spring of 1970. The major US distributor was very distressed about the very high warranty costs on the "S" - mostly exhaust problems - and urged that the model be replaced by something else. OTOH, the "S" was a huge sales success and a major market changer. It appears to me that the "S" was going to carry over to the '70 production year but the axe fell suddenly when the Roadster became available.
Also, at just that time, there were major increases in the finish colours of the Roadster; for '70, there were yellow, red, and black (solid colours), and Royal Blue, Roman Purple, Golden Bronze, Emerald Green metalflakes (and a Tangerine solid for H*-R*d*rs only). I assume that those metal flakes were Fireflake process - all at this time were glassfibre tanks and side covers.
Uncertainty comes when trying to ascertain whether any or many '70 "S" models were produced with the wider range of finish colors. My impression (have been working at several Norton dealers in the early '70s and later at the Wolverhampton factory) is that the Ruby Red was due to die with the "S", the Sapphire/Pacific Blue was to continue for Roadsters as the "Royal Blue" and that *normally* the last of the "S" models were not to get the newer, wider range of colours. However, we know that there were some "S" models delivered in '70 with the newer colours, (as I mentioned before, oddly, it was likely that these were individual motorcycles after the regular "S" production run was due to have ended). It may have been that the distributors allowed favored (??) dealers to place special orders for late "S" motorcycles in the '70 Roadster colours.
It may have also been that the paint components for the Royal Blue were changed to to a more normal (and less expensive) plan metalflake type paint. The "flake" blue was carried over to the steel Roadster tanks at the end of '72/ early '73 as steel tanks and side covers were brought into production, but this was, indeed, non-Fireflake blue metalflake paint specification, not the more expensive Fireflake.
Since the Roadster went to a black taillamp fairing, it might be likely that those late '70 "S" motorcycles in colours more commonly used on Roadster might get the black fairing in '70 but I have no info to verify this.
 
Blewdy Yaink said:
Thank you for this info. In the US, we were told that the only choices available for a '69 "S" were the Ruby Red Fireflake and the Saphire/Pacific Blue Fireflake finishes. (It is possible is that others were available regularly in other markets.) At the same time, there were "plain metalflake" silver Commandos (later called "Fastback" models) or silver with a translucent top coat applied over (or applied first into a mold if for a gelcoated glassfibre tank). The "R" models might have had blue available but the only ones I've seen photographed "modern" or period were red fireflake. My first Commando was a '69 "S" -- engine number approx. 500 after the quoted "S" built -- with Ruby Red paint; I had seen photos of the blue and was told that it was late coming to the market and so only red was available at the time. On later trips to my dealer, I did see blue "S" models in stock.
I am only guessing but it may have been that there were production holdups with the blue and, although both red and blue were shown and quoted to be available for '69, in practice, only red was available for a short time during the early days; perhaps, the "R" was planned for blue but it never happened. Again, only guesses and my dealer may have been trying to sell a red one that he had on his floor and was trying to deflect a buyer's wish for a blue one.
There was a lot of turmoil about the "S" in the spring of 1970. The major US distributor was very distressed about the very high warranty costs on the "S" - mostly exhaust problems - and urged that the model be replaced by something else. OTOH, the "S" was a huge sales success and a major market changer. It appears to me that the "S" was going to carry over to the '70 production year but the axe fell suddenly when the Roadster became available.
Also, at just that time, there were major increases in the finish colours of the Roadster; for '70, there were yellow, red, and black (solid colours), and Royal Blue, Roman Purple, Golden Bronze, Emerald Green metalflakes (and a Tangerine solid for H*-R*d*rs only). I assume that those metal flakes were Fireflake process - all at this time were glassfibre tanks and side covers.
Uncertainty comes when trying to ascertain whether any or many '70 "S" models were produced with the wider range of finish colors. My impression (have been working at several Norton dealers in the early '70s and later at the Wolverhampton factory) is that the Ruby Red was due to die with the "S", the Sapphire/Pacific Blue was to continue for Roadsters as the "Royal Blue" and that *normally* the last of the "S" models were not to get the newer, wider range of colours. However, we know that there were some "S" models delivered in '70 with the newer colours, (as I mentioned before, oddly, it was likely that these were individual motorcycles after the regular "S" production run was due to have ended). It may have been that the distributors allowed favored (??) dealers to place special orders for late "S" motorcycles in the '70 Roadster colours.
It may have also been that the paint components for the Royal Blue were changed to to a more normal (and less expensive) plan metalflake type paint. The "flake" blue was carried over to the steel Roadster tanks at the end of '72/ early '73 as steel tanks and side covers were brought into production, but this was, indeed, non-Fireflake blue metalflake paint specification, not the more expensive Fireflake.
Since the Roadster went to a black taillamp fairing, it might be likely that those late '70 "S" motorcycles in colours more commonly used on Roadster might get the black fairing in '70 but I have no info to verify this.
Click to expand...
A very informative post, and matches very well with what I've found - thanks!
For both 2-tone Fastback and 'R' models, the colour was a candy red sprayed over silver flake gelcoat. Some '68 Fastbacks were Sapphire blue, which was a candy, darker blue than the 'S' Type. The later 'Royal Blue' is the same colour as on the 'S' Type, and carried on into 850 production, as did Royal Bronze. Both colours were applied to Fastbacks as well as Emerald Green (which looks great on a Fastback!), possibly up to the end of production.
With the exception of the red, from what I've seen all the metalflake colours were spray painted with dyed flakes, and from the many examples I've seen they deteriorated in use as the carrier lacquer wore off, exposing the flakes so the dye also wore off, revealing a silver/black patch.
A few years ago another forum member from Alaska sent me a substantial chip of the original Fireflake Royal Blue from his '73 850, and it perfectly matched my '73 which I'd just resprayed, and it also matched an original 'NOS' 'S' Type sidepanel.

 
OK, here's an important item in the mix, for people who want an "original type" finish. I had forgotten about the metalflake "Fastback" tanks and I'm not familiar with the processes involved in those.

But let's talk about the first "S"/Roadster tanks, made in glassfibre. They were not spray painted, they were done with layers of layup in the glassfibre. There was a clear coat, then a matrix coat that was translucent-to-nearly clear with tint and Fireflake metal flakes mixed in. Once the players that anyone could see was installed in the mold, then the "structural" layers of the glass tank was laid in (my impressing was that they used a good amount of mat/fabric and resin rather than adding thickness and shape with a "chopper-gun" but that doesn't matter for our purposes). The Fireflakes typically had a mixture of colours on the aluminum flakes themselves. Red flake-finishes dropped out of the available colour mix about '70 and were replaced by the solid Signal Red color.
It's possible to get a very good replication of the glassfibre process using original Fireflake mixture components -- these have come back into availability recently -- along with careful spraying of tint coat and clear -- but it's a simulation of the real Fireflake finish (and there's nothing wrong with that -- in fact, I'm glad that it's available for restorers).
The molding process was time consuming and expensive. I was working at the factory when we switched to steel tanks. The change to conventionally-sprayed finishes was seen as a cost-reduction opportunity; the only problem was that they didn't want to lose that glittery metalflake look. So with a good bit of development, it was found that flake finishes using less-costly, more common bright aluminum flake mixes would work fine for the bright blue metal flake found on the later 750s and early 850s - same for bronze, but these were conventional metalflake, spray-on paint processes and did not involve the Fireflake colour coats, the Fireflake flake materials, and the processes for applying the finishes.
With this in mind, I prefer to use "Fireflake" to refer to finishes that are wholly in line with the use of components that are genuinely Fireflake (or reasonably similar modern replacements) items. I'm happy to call a modern spray finish that uses genuine Fireflakes and entirely compatible and representative tint materials as "Fireflake". But the '73 and later finishes -- both original from the factory and as provided by skilled and competent restoration experts using translucent auto paints and plain bright flakes -- just isn't Fireflake, It can be very pretty but there's a basic difference. Similar but different -- sorta like kissing your grandmother is "pretty much like" kissing Sophia Loren but I'm going to guess that the resulting experiences will involve quite different levels of enjoyment. (My personal choice is very likely to be Sophia, YMMV!)
 
Blewdy Yaink said:
OK, here's an important item in the mix, for people who want an "original type" finish. I had forgotten about the metalflake "Fastback" tanks and I'm not familiar with the processes involved in those.

But let's talk about the first "S"/Roadster tanks, made in glassfibre. They were not spray painted, they were done with layers of layup in the glassfibre. There was a clear coat, then a matrix coat that was translucent-to-nearly clear with tint and Fireflake metal flakes mixed in. Once the players that anyone could see was installed in the mold, then the "structural" layers of the glass tank was laid in (my impressing was that they used a good amount of mat/fabric and resin rather than adding thickness and shape with a "chopper-gun" but that doesn't matter for our purposes). The Fireflakes typically had a mixture of colours on the aluminum flakes themselves. Red flake-finishes dropped out of the available colour mix about '70 and were replaced by the solid Signal Red color.
It's possible to get a very good replication of the glassfibre process using original Fireflake mixture components -- these have come back into availability recently -- along with careful spraying of tint coat and clear -- but it's a simulation of the real Fireflake finish (and there's nothing wrong with that -- in fact, I'm glad that it's available for restorers).
The molding process was time consuming and expensive. I was working at the factory when we switched to steel tanks. The change to conventionally-sprayed finishes was seen as a cost-reduction opportunity; the only problem was that they didn't want to lose that glittery metalflake look. So with a good bit of development, it was found that flake finishes using less-costly, more common bright aluminum flake mixes would work fine for the bright blue metal flake found on the later 750s and early 850s - same for bronze, but these were conventional metalflake, spray-on paint processes and did not involve the Fireflake colour coats, the Fireflake flake materials, and the processes for applying the finishes.
With this in mind, I prefer to use "Fireflake" to refer to finishes that are wholly in line with the use of components that are genuinely Fireflake (or reasonably similar modern replacements) items. I'm happy to call a modern spray finish that uses genuine Fireflakes and entirely compatible and representative tint materials as "Fireflake". But the '73 and later finishes -- both original from the factory and as provided by skilled and competent restoration experts using translucent auto paints and plain bright flakes -- just isn't Fireflake, It can be very pretty but there's a basic difference. Similar but different -- sorta like kissing your grandmother is "pretty much like" kissing Sophia Loren but I'm going to guess that the resulting experiences will involve quite different levels of enjoyment. (My personal choice is very likely to be Sophia, YMMV!)
Click to expand...
I'll pass on both, thank you :-)
(Though I'd have to get the shovel out for one!)

 
Blewdy Yaink said:
OK, here's an important item in the mix, for people who want an "original type" finish. I had forgotten about the metalflake "Fastback" tanks and I'm not familiar with the processes involved in those.

But let's talk about the first "S"/Roadster tanks, made in glassfibre. They were not spray painted, they were done with layers of layup in the glassfibre. There was a clear coat, then a matrix coat that was translucent-to-nearly clear with tint and Fireflake metal flakes mixed in. Once the players that anyone could see was installed in the mold, then the "structural" layers of the glass tank was laid in (my impressing was that they used a good amount of mat/fabric and resin rather than adding thickness and shape with a "chopper-gun" but that doesn't matter for our purposes). The Fireflakes typically had a mixture of colours on the aluminum flakes themselves. Red flake-finishes dropped out of the available colour mix about '70 and were replaced by the solid Signal Red color.
It's possible to get a very good replication of the glassfibre process using original Fireflake mixture components -- these have come back into availability recently -- along with careful spraying of tint coat and clear -- but it's a simulation of the real Fireflake finish (and there's nothing wrong with that -- in fact, I'm glad that it's available for restorers).
The molding process was time consuming and expensive. I was working at the factory when we switched to steel tanks. The change to conventionally-sprayed finishes was seen as a cost-reduction opportunity; the only problem was that they didn't want to lose that glittery metalflake look. So with a good bit of development, it was found that flake finishes using less-costly, more common bright aluminum flake mixes would work fine for the bright blue metal flake found on the later 750s and early 850s - same for bronze, but these were conventional metalflake, spray-on paint processes and did not involve the Fireflake colour coats, the Fireflake flake materials, and the processes for applying the finishes.
With this in mind, I prefer to use "Fireflake" to refer to finishes that are wholly in line with the use of components that are genuinely Fireflake (or reasonably similar modern replacements) items. I'm happy to call a modern spray finish that uses genuine Fireflakes and entirely compatible and representative tint materials as "Fireflake". But the '73 and later finishes -- both original from the factory and as provided by skilled and competent restoration experts using translucent auto paints and plain bright flakes -- just isn't Fireflake, It can be very pretty but there's a basic difference. Similar but different -- sorta like kissing your grandmother is "pretty much like" kissing Sophia Loren but I'm going to guess that the resulting experiences will involve quite different levels of enjoyment. (My personal choice is very likely to be Sophia, YMMV!)
Click to expand...
We'll have to agree to differ.
Having re-sprayed a few, and sanded through the layers, the only gelcoat colour I've encountered was silver ( I think it was originally a marine 'bass boat' thing?). The 2-tone FB, the 'R' and 'S' Red were candies, spray painted over the silver base. This is clearly evident in old survivors where the red has faded off due to sun bleaching.
The rest were dyed flakes. 'Fireflake' is just a name as far as I'm aware, and doesn't refer to any specific brand or process?
The 'S' panel above was new, unused stock bought from RGM many years ago, and the orange-peel in the paint is clearly visible.
All my assessments are based on evidence of having the hardware in my hands.
To re-iterate, I've sanded through Blue, Golden Bronze and Roman Purple flake jobs on fibreglass tanks & panels, and they've all been a thin, painted layer, with the gelcoat underneath being plain blue in the case of the Blue & Purple tanks (as per the BSA Barracuda), or plain Signal Orange gelcoat for the Bronze.

Did you witness the process at the Norton factory?
 
I own a 70 S that was sent to Berliner.
It left the factory as a purple roadster.
Sold as an "S".

Previous owner painted over the purple to match what he thought was the original color (the blue on the interior side covers).
I can confirm that it is very easy to sand through the purple into the silver base.
 
NPeteN said:
I own a 70 S that was sent to Berliner.
It left the factory as a purple roadster.
Sold as an "S".

Previous owner painted over the purple to match what he thought was the original color (the blue on the interior side covers).
I can confirm that it is very easy to sand through the purple into the silver base.
Click to expand...

Interesting! Is the serial number somewhere in the 135500 range?
 
B+Bogus said:
We'll have to agree to differ.
Having re-sprayed a few, and sanded through the layers, the only gelcoat colour I've encountered was silver ( I think it was originally a marine 'bass boat' thing?). The 2-tone FB, the 'R' and 'S' Red were candies, spray painted over the silver base. This is clearly evident in old survivors where the red has faded off due to sun bleaching.
The rest were dyed flakes. 'Fireflake' is just a name as far as I'm aware, and doesn't refer to any specific brand or process?
The 'S' panel above was new, unused stock bought from RGM many years ago, and the orange-peel in the paint is clearly visible.
All my assessments are based on evidence of having the hardware in my hands.
To re-iterate, I've sanded through Blue, Golden Bronze and Roman Purple flake jobs on fibreglass tanks & panels, and they've all been a thin, painted layer, with the gelcoat underneath being plain blue in the case of the Blue & Purple tanks (as per the BSA Barracuda), or plain Signal Orange gelcoat for the Bronze.

Did you witness the process at the Norton factory?
Click to expand...
I defer to your practical experience. The process did not happen at the factory, it happened at the glassfibre molders who were the factory OEM suppliers. I do not have direct experience with the "R" -- every photo that I've ever seen seems to indicate that it was identical to the first red "S" tanks (of course, the "R" did not have matching side panels, like the contemporary "Fastback" (or the model that would become the Fastback). My red "S" had flakes that appeared through the clear gel coat (or clear spray painted outer coat, if that's what it was) to have one side gold and the other a dark but sparkly red.
I was always told that those were "Fireflakes" and that the Fireflake name was a commercial tradename, owned by the specific supplier of the finish components (although it very well could have been that it became a widely-adopted term like "petrol" for motor fuel and "hoover" for vacuum cleaner).
Our experience seems not to match. Maybe we'll find data sometimes that indicates why or maybe it's lost in "the mists of time".
Thanks for your work supplying Commando owners with fine painted components that enhance owners' restorations.
 
NPeteN said:
141046 and I ain't kidding ya.
Between September and Jan of 1970. I have the despatch record with exact date. Well after the "last" S.
Click to expand...
My Green 'S' 1350xx despatched end of May 1970.
On the same factory record page, the bike only four digits prior to mine (another 'S') was despatched to the US in Jan '70.
Trying to work this out just makes my head hurt o_O
 
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