961 clutch disassembly and inspection day 1

[Boss302]

Finally getting around to checking out the clutch. It had not been disengaging fully and clunks when shifting from neutral to 1st. Getting worse lately and stalls going into gear. Seemed to lock up last week when I engaged it and attempted to roll. So, now it is really time to deal with it. No more procrastination.
Using Richard's service manual guide which is wonderful. I need to send him something to show my appreciation. This is a 2015 and I know the primary side has been entered at least once before when I took it to the dealer in Los Angeles Area about 4 years ago. They were searching for the source of a concerning noise that turned out to be a loose stator (they said). It was also the cycle world test bike in 2015 and I have no idea what south bay cycle had done with it.
Anyway, upon pulling the primary cover , I notice first , no gasket. No leak so no foul I suppose. I have one I'll put on. Anyone who doesn't use a primary gasket out there?

I drained 1 liter of lube from the primary and is as pictured. Green and milky. I have no idea what this is or what may have gotten in there if it's not what the dealer put in during the mentioned service.

I removed the alternator magnet and found the balance shaft alignment as pictured. Off by 2 teeth.

I removed the clutch cover plate and disks. The disks were moderately stuck together and needed some persuading to separate. Otherwise appear true and not significantly worn at about 5k miles.

I have to pick up a gear puller for the balance gear, so that's all for today.
I notice the balance gear has the 4 holes. 2 are threaded and 2 not. The unthreaded holes are open all the way thru both gears. The threaded holes are partially blocked by a spacer or spring or whatever sits between the gears so a bolt will not pass all the way. I can pull the gear as is but will I be able to lock the gears together upon removal without the bolt threading thru both gears? I can tighten them up and pass bolts thru the unthreaded holes. Will that do?
More to come hopefully tomorrow. Your experience will be appreciated if you can reply.

 

[BritTwit]

I removed the alternator magnet and found the balance shaft alignment as pictured. Off by 2 teeth.

Well,
That certainly can't be helping engine vibration!

 

[Boss302]

I just wonder who was responsible for that. I'll see if I notice a difference when I am able to ride it again.

 

[BritTwit]

I remember the Bushman's repair thread where he discovered that the balancer intermediate gear keyway was off by a few degrees from proper alignment with the crank. I wonder if the misalignment of the gears in your primary was an attempt to improve the alignment.

 

[cliffa]

Finally getting around to checking out the clutch. It had not been disengaging fully and clunks when shifting from neutral to 1st. Getting worse lately and stalls going into gear. Seemed to lock up last week when I engaged it and attempted to roll. So, now it is really time to deal with it. No more procrastination.
Using Richard's service manual guide which is wonderful. I need to send him something to show my appreciation. This is a 2015 and I know the primary side has been entered at least once before when I took it to the dealer in Los Angeles Area about 4 years ago. They were searching for the source of a concerning noise that turned out to be a loose stator (they said). It was also the cycle world test bike in 2015 and I have no idea what south bay cycle had done with it.
Anyway, upon pulling the primary cover , I notice first , no gasket. No leak so no foul I suppose. I have one I'll put on. Anyone who doesn't use a primary gasket out there?

I drained 1 liter of lube from the primary and is as pictured. Green and milky. I have no idea what this is or what may have gotten in there if it's not what the dealer put in during the mentioned service.

I removed the alternator magnet and found the balance shaft alignment as pictured. Off by 2 teeth.

I removed the clutch cover plate and disks. The disks were moderately stuck together and needed some persuading to separate. Otherwise appear true and not significantly worn at about 5k miles.

I have to pick up a gear puller for the balance gear, so that's all for today.
I notice the balance gear has the 4 holes. 2 are threaded and 2 not. The unthreaded holes are open all the way thru both gears. The threaded holes are partially blocked by a spacer or spring or whatever sits between the gears so a bolt will not pass all the way. I can pull the gear as is but will I be able to lock the gears together upon removal without the bolt threading thru both gears? I can tighten them up and pass bolts thru the unthreaded holes. Will that do?
More to come hopefully tomorrow. Your experience will be appreciated if you can reply.

Wow, what is that green stuff, is it actually oil? No wonder the clutch plates were sticking.

Here’s how I’ve done it:

Before you remove the intermediate gear check the starter ring gear for any movement, then the clutch basket for any movement in relation to the backplate ( driven plate) radially and laterally. ( it’s a bit easier to do all this while it’s mounted). Pay particular attention to the rivets for any movement while applying force to the basket.

I use a piece of thick aluminum about 25mm wide to jam the gears ( across not between them)

Don’t use a two legged puller to get the gear off, as you may damage the scissor gear Behind. Use a flange puller with two bolts through it and screwed hand tight into the the two 8mm tapped holes. Once it’s wound up you may need to use a hammer on the end of the puller centre bolt to break the taper. If you want to keep the tension on the scissor gear, leave the centre nut on the shaft but backed off a few turns. That will stop the gear potentially completely disengaging when the taper breaks. Once it has broken you can then remove the puller, and again screw in the 8mm bolts but this time tight against the inner spring. That will lock the gears together, and you can remove the centre nut and withdraw the gear.

Before you remove the clutch basket, check the centre bearings for play / roughness. In my experience the clutch basket can also be difficult to remove from the main shaft so a big puller may be required there.

I hope this helps.

 

[Boss302]

I remember the Bushman's repair thread where he discovered that the balancer intermediate gear keyway was off by a few degrees from proper alignment with the crank. I wonder if the misalignment of the gears in your primary was an attempt to improve the alignment.

Unless someone on this forum knows more about that , I guess I'll find out the hard way.

 

[Boss302]

Wow, what is that green stuff, is it actually oil? No wonder the clutch plates were sticking.

Here’s how I’ve done it:

Before you remove the intermediate gear check the starter ring gear for any movement, then the clutch basket for any movement in relation to the backplate ( driven plate) radially and laterally. ( it’s a bit easier to do all this while it’s mounted). Pay particular attention to the rivets for any movement while applying force to the basket.

I use a piece of thick aluminum about 25mm wide to jam the gears ( across not between them)

Don’t use a two legged puller to get the gear off, as you may damage the scissor gear Behind. Use a flange puller with two bolts through it and screwed hand tight into the the two 8mm tapped holes. Once it’s wound up you may need to use a hammer on the end of the puller centre bolt to break the taper. If you want to keep the tension on the scissor gear, leave the centre nut on the shaft but backed off a few turns. That will stop the gear potentially completely disengaging when the taper breaks. Once it has broken you can then remove the puller, and again screw in the 8mm bolts but this time tight against the inner spring. That will lock the gears together, and you can remove the centre nut and withdraw the gear.

Before you remove the clutch basket, check the centre bearings for play / roughness. In my experience the clutch basket can also be difficult to remove from the main shaft so a big puller may be required there.

I hope this helps.

That does help. Thanks. Any thoughts on the balance gear alignment mark's being off by 2 teeth? Could it be an intentional compensation as Brit Twit considers?

 

[Boss302]

What does nonhypoid oil look like if used incorrectly where hypoid oil is required where gear meshing damages the oil?

 

[City Garage]

Finally getting around to checking out the clutch. It had not been disengaging fully and clunks when shifting from neutral to 1st. Getting worse lately and stalls going into gear. Seemed to lock up last week when I engaged it and attempted to roll. So, now it is really time to deal with it. No more procrastination.
Using Richard's service manual guide which is wonderful. I need to send him something to show my appreciation. This is a 2015 and I know the primary side has been entered at least once before when I took it to the dealer in Los Angeles Area about 4 years ago. They were searching for the source of a concerning noise that turned out to be a loose stator (they said). It was also the cycle world test bike in 2015 and I have no idea what south bay cycle had done with it.
Anyway, upon pulling the primary cover , I notice first , no gasket. No leak so no foul I suppose. I have one I'll put on. Anyone who doesn't use a primary gasket out there?

I drained 1 liter of lube from the primary and is as pictured. Green and milky. I have no idea what this is or what may have gotten in there if it's not what the dealer put in during the mentioned service.

I removed the alternator magnet and found the balance shaft alignment as pictured. Off by 2 teeth.

I removed the clutch cover plate and disks. The disks were moderately stuck together and needed some persuading to separate. Otherwise appear true and not significantly worn at about 5k miles.

I have to pick up a gear puller for the balance gear, so that's all for today.
I notice the balance gear has the 4 holes. 2 are threaded and 2 not. The unthreaded holes are open all the way thru both gears. The threaded holes are partially blocked by a spacer or spring or whatever sits between the gears so a bolt will not pass all the way. I can pull the gear as is but will I be able to lock the gears together upon removal without the bolt threading thru both gears? I can tighten them up and pass bolts thru the unthreaded holes. Will that do?
More to come hopefully tomorrow. Your experience will be appreciated if you can reply.

South bay didn't put gaskets back in if they tore because they didn't have any stock. So there are primaries that have sealant on them.

The green could be Penn Grade which is something we use here as well.

The marks should be aligned. That is the balance factor

 

[Boss302]

South bay didn't put gaskets back in if they tore because they didn't have any stock. So there are primaries that have sealant on them.

The green could be Penn Grade which is something we use here as well.

The marks should be aligned. That is the balance factor

On this one there is no gasket and no sealant. But still no leak. This would have been Indian motorcycle of Orange County as they did the work. South Bay had gone under by the time I bought it in 2017 I think. IMOC sold me the bike like a consignment for South Bay. I suspect they also didn't have a gasket although they had my bike there for 6 mos.
Thanks for the info on the balance shaft gear and the oil.

 

[City Garage]

On this one there is no gasket and no sealant. But still no leak. This would have been Indian motorcycle of Orange County as they did the work. South Bay had gone under by the time I bought it in 2017 I think. IMOC sold me the bike like a consignment for South Bay. I suspect they also didn't have a gasket although they had my bike there for 6 mos.
Thanks for the info on the balance shaft gear and the oil.

I consider them almost the same. I worked with Leo(Executive VP) at OC Indian on obtaining parts( I also bought out their stock) and they are good people there. They had their hands tied like most dealers.

AF1 might have a primary gasket

 

[mean gene]

IMHO that oil looks like it has moisture (water) in it. Wrong type of oil may have foamed but No oil I ever used looked like that after lot's of abuse! Let it set and see if it separates. Good luck

 

[Boss302]

I consider them almost the same. I worked with Leo(Executive VP) at OC Indian on obtaining parts( I also bought out their stock) and they are good people there. They had their hands tied like most dealers.

AF1 might have a primary gasket

Thanks. I bought a gasket for the primary and timing side when I went through the timing chest several mos ago so I'm good for now.

 

[Boss302]

IMHO that oil looks like it has moisture (water) in it. Wrong type of oil may have foamed but No oil I ever used looked like that after lot's of abuse! Let it set and see if it separates. Good luck

I thought about that. I live in arid Arizona and I can't figure how water would get into the primary. It does have the hose that goes onto the primary filler cap which I guess was part of a fix for the crankcase breather issues. I have found water in the airbox after a wash. I'll have to go over the breather connections to see if there is any continuity between that small tube and the airbox vent system. It does go up to the airbox but hard to imagine water getting in from the top of the box.

 

[TonyA]

Finally getting around to checking out the clutch. It had not been disengaging fully and clunks when shifting from neutral to 1st. Getting worse lately and stalls going into gear. Seemed to lock up last week when I engaged it and attempted to roll. So, now it is really time to deal with it. No more procrastination.
Using Richard's service manual guide which is wonderful. I need to send him something to show my appreciation. This is a 2015 and I know the primary side has been entered at least once before when I took it to the dealer in Los Angeles Area about 4 years ago. They were searching for the source of a concerning noise that turned out to be a loose stator (they said). It was also the cycle world test bike in 2015 and I have no idea what south bay cycle had done with it.
Anyway, upon pulling the primary cover , I notice first , no gasket. No leak so no foul I suppose. I have one I'll put on. Anyone who doesn't use a primary gasket out there?

I drained 1 liter of lube from the primary and is as pictured. Green and milky. I have no idea what this is or what may have gotten in there if it's not what the dealer put in during the mentioned service.

I removed the alternator magnet and found the balance shaft alignment as pictured. Off by 2 teeth.

I removed the clutch cover plate and disks. The disks were moderately stuck together and needed some persuading to separate. Otherwise appear true and not significantly worn at about 5k miles.

I have to pick up a gear puller for the balance gear, so that's all for today.
I notice the balance gear has the 4 holes. 2 are threaded and 2 not. The unthreaded holes are open all the way thru both gears. The threaded holes are partially blocked by a spacer or spring or whatever sits between the gears so a bolt will not pass all the way. I can pull the gear as is but will I be able to lock the gears together upon removal without the bolt threading thru both gears? I can tighten them up and pass bolts thru the unthreaded holes. Will that do?
More to come hopefully tomorrow. Your experience will be appreciated if you can reply.

With the Jam Tool that Richard Coote made your balance gear will stay jammed until you take off the gear puller and then you can lock the balance gear with the shorter bolts as he shows in his manual.

 

[Boss302]

With the Jam Tool that Richard Coote made your balance gear will stay jammed until you take off the gear puller and then you can lock the balance gear with the shorter bolts as he shows in his manual.

I don't have that tool. I'll figure a way to secure it. Cliffa`s idea sounds good. I just can't see paying that much for a tool I may use once.

 

[Voodooo]

I consider them almost the same. I worked with Leo(Executive VP) at OC Indian on obtaining parts( I also bought out their stock) and they are good people there. They had their hands tied like most dealers.

AF1 might have a primary gasket

Leo and Byron are who I got my Domi from. They were / are better to deal with than Matt Capri and Carlos were when I bought my Commando.

 

[Boss302]

Leo and Byron are who I got my Domi from. They were / are better to deal with than Matt Capri and Carlos were when I bought my Commando.

Leo was good for the sale and some parts under warranty (battery, turn signal, chain guard) then he handed me off to Chris in service once the real problems started. Chris was pleasant to deal with but there was a problem with returning calls and they had my bike for 6 mos while the warranty faded away. I know they had their hands full dealing with a bike that must have seemed like a time bomb of unknown problems popping up with little support on how to fix them. I love the Norton brand and have for 50 years and I enjoy working on bikes and learning in the process. If this was my only bike I would be unhappy, but I don't depend on it so that's OK. I've decided if I stay on top of the potential problems hopefully it won't kill me by freezing up or coming apart on the highway.

 

[Voodooo]

Leo was good for the sale and some parts under warranty (battery, turn signal, chain guard) then he handed me off to Chris in service once the real problems started. Chris was pleasant to deal with but there was a problem with returning calls and they had my bike for 6 mos while the warranty faded away. I know they had their hands full dealing with a bike that must have seemed like a time bomb of unknown problems popping up with little support on how to fix them. I love the Norton brand and have for 50 years and I enjoy working on bikes and learning in the process. If this was my only bike I would be unhappy, but I don't depend on it so that's OK. I've decided if I stay on top of the potential problems hopefully it won't kill me by freezing up or coming apart on the highway.

Sorry you had to go through all of that.
I’m just stating that, when I bought my Dominator naked from Leo, it was way easier and smoother than the dealings I went through with SBN Matt Capri and Carlos when buying my Commando.

 

[Boss302]

Sorry you had to go through all of that.
I’m just stating that, when I bought my Dominator naked from Leo, it was way easier and smoother than the dealings I went through with SBN Matt Capri and Carlos when buying my Commando.

Never had the pleasure of meeting the SBN crew. I found my deal on the internet and made an offer to Leo on the phone. I paid $11,900 for basically a demo that was 2 years old with 1000 miles. Paid tax and lic, reg in Az. I can't complain about that deal. Sounds like you've had better luck with yours after the sale.