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Worn PW3 cam

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by Fullauto, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. Madnorton

    Madnorton VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008

    Your're welcome, and if you know anyone in the UK that knows how to heat treat the alloy rods I have had forged - a European first according to the material supplier, then please let me know, as two major facilities in the UK are not sure they can. As for the last paragraph, the steel I am interested in, some on here will have handled it, fitted it or even flown in military aircraft using it. It is hugely more expensive than S132. It has been used to replace gears and can be made two 3/4 the size of the gear it replaces and still handle the same power - it is now on sale to the public. Deep pockets though.

    As for the rest, read the research papers that are a little more hidden on the web, most are independent and come from research facilities and Universities in the US, UK and the far east, most confirm what we as owners know, some are surprising, especially the those that deal with modern oil and surface finishes, machined, polished and coated, no wonder more oils are becoming so engine specific.
     
  2. watson rider

    watson rider

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Few people jumping the gun here, suggest a good hard look at oil type, servicing/ change periods and most importantly what oil pressure is being run? for every 20-30 Nortons I see maybe one is fitted with an accurate guage so most owners/riders have no idea what the "HOT" operating temperature really is.My early hardbound Norton-Villiers workshop manual for 750,s, is one of the few publications that actually gives an actual figure[ Quote /at the timing-cover take-off point pressure should be 45-55PSI , when the oil is at normal running temperature end Quote.
     
  3. Mr. Rick

    Mr. Rick VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Would not the reading of 45-55 be related in an important way to the RPM number? My gauge will get those numbers only at higher rev's, but at idle, it drops dramatically. Many others have reported the same...
     
  4. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    How is oil pressure related to cam wear when the cam is lubed by splash ?
     
    SteveA and oldmikew like this.
  5. Snotzo

    Snotzo

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Madnorton,
    do yourself a favor and have Fullauto's camshaft examined and tested for hardness and granular configuration by a qualified establishment that specialises in such proceedures.

    Until that is done, the reason for the failure you have put forward is conjecture only.

    Hardness testing should involve transverse sectioning of two lobes preferably, one where the failure occurred, and another which is still in serviceable condition. Properly prepared and setup, a series of tests can then be carried out, to record the core hardness, and then by using a transverse method, a line of staggered tests can be performed.
    Finally the samples after preparation and etching can be microscopically examined to reveal the granular structure.

    If you have such testing done, you may well learn something to your advantage, and quite possibly that Fullauto's concerns are well founded !

    Do the job properly, and in the meantime re quarrantine your stock of PW3 camshafts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    madass140 likes this.
  6. Madnorton

    Madnorton VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Err, missing something here, UKAS, GKN, SAFRAN, SAFED approved test facility used, and yes the above was done. I was not the only one that tested the cam, it was also tested in Australia, maybe you would like to tell them to get it tested correctly too. I think you have not read the posts, or have jumped the gun a bit here or you would have realised it was tested in Aus.
    So yes, I have done myself a favour and if you have anything useful to add please post it, or email it to me and I will follow it up.
     
  7. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    Do you answer PMs on this site?
     
  8. Snotzo

    Snotzo

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Yes I tried to read all the posts and noted reference by Fullauto to the tests he had done in Australia, but unless I missed a post, the results were not fully disclosed, neither were any photo's of the wear posted, or of the tests carried out, which left it somewhat untidy at his end.
    You no doubt received a copy of his test report, also the cams for you to have tested too. Your test results have as yet also not been posted.

    You can be open about this and provide all the test information, or keep it all under wraps 'in house', in which case members of this forum will undoubtedly form their own opinions - if they haven't already done so.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  9. Snotzo

    Snotzo

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    My attention has ben drawn to a request by Fullauto that the results of the Australian matalurgical tests are not publically revealed.
    The possibility that his engine builder might be somehow implicated in the failure is one of the reasons given.

    This being the case I can but wonder why Fullauto started the thread in the first place.

    For myself, I regret having wasted so much time and effort on what originally appeared to be a very interesting problem.
     
    Fast Eddie likes this.
  10. Fullauto

    Fullauto VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    I did not say that at all. I said it was up to the engine builder to release the report. He is not a forum member and diesn't see this stuff. I will see him tomorrow and see if we can release it.
     
  11. watson rider

    watson rider

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Refer to section C21 and Fig C29 of your genuine Norton manual , shows how the return oil from the topend plays a vital part in lubing the cam/ followers, a low oil pressure setting reduces the amount of oil that gets to the topend, thus reducing the amount that runs down the rocker drains onto the cam, hence increasing the chance/ risk of inadequate lubing of the cam and followers. most of the very small amount[ 250-300ML] of oil that is in the sump/ crankcases gets pelted up the bores,not forward to the cam so this supplementary lubing of the cam via the rocker returns is vital to ensure long life of the cam/ followers.
     
  12. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    You are correct in theory sir. But IMHO, if you run an engine that’s oil pressure is so low that it isn’t feeding the rockers the small amount that they get, cam wear will be the least of your problems.

    Really, the cams main lubrication is from oil mist within the crank cases being thrashed around.

    Of course, I wouldn’t argue against the need for good oil pressure! But I still maintain it is not a significant factor in cam wear.
     
  13. Snotzo

    Snotzo

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
     
  14. Snotzo

    Snotzo

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    The AN web site gives the open day date as the 29th.
    Is this just another instance of 'the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing', and typical of the present day
    Andover Norton ?

    I would very much like to attend the open day, but would appreciate to be assured which is the correct date.
     
  15. gtiller

    gtiller VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    It’s definitely on the Saturday as confirmed in their last newsletter.

    FE6619D1-DA6C-41F0-98D7-5F59D3A65817.jpeg
     
  16. watson rider

    watson rider

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Correct in practise also , I have repaired literally dozens of norton motors that have succumbed to a lethal combination of wrong choice of oil, too long/ extended periods of oil change and low oil pressure, resulting in worn cams and followers. As I understand it the machine in question was ridden across the infamous Nullabor from perth to melbourne in some of the hottest weather of our summer{ a ride that I have done myself} a ride that will destroy the ability of some oils to adequately to protect the hard- working, high load area,s of cams and followers. Most riders don,t know what is happening to their oil under these conditions, they don,t have an oil gauge fitted to monitor the oil pressure and temperature[ yes you can maintain a check on both with just a pressure guage]so after a couple of days of hard riding[ lets say 400-500 mile days@70mph]if you are crossing the Nullabor that,s what you will be doing, there ain,t that much too see out there, believe me, the damage is done. I note that Paul Dunstall was a believer in providing his famous endurance racers/ record setters with an improved oiling supply to the camlobes/ followers, I wonder why?
     
  17. Fullauto

    Fullauto VIP MEMBER

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    Apr 13, 2009
    Factually incorrect.
     
  18. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

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    Oct 4, 2013
    That’s a lot of contributory factors.

    I still argue that, in an otherwise good engine with good oil etc, loss of pressure (not flow) will result on other catastrophic failures before cam wear becomes catastrophic.

    If I understand correctly, Ken’s engine was in good shape apart from cams and folllwers. That, I believe, indicates that lack of pressure was not his root cause.

    If it was, his big ends would show it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  19. Snotzo

    Snotzo

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    So how do AN advise all those who are not on their mailing list ?
    Unless they correct the web site error quickly, they are likely to have a number of people turn up on the 29th to find nobody there.
     
  20. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

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    Oct 4, 2013

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