Why is my paint doing this?

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The Fireflake Blue NOS Fastback tank that Norvil had for sale recently seemed to have the flakes incorporated into the fibreglass.

We need more samples of genuine tanks, who knows what may have happened to some of them over the past 40+ years...

Bernhard said:
Re; fibreglass tanks. These are not normally painted but come with a coloured Gel coat. Hence you do not have to paint them. HTH.

B+Bogus said:
Not strictly true - I have proof!
Yes, the silver ones were flake in the gelcoat, also the straight colours, I.e., yellow & orange, but not the Fireflake blues - The flakes were definitely painted on.
Bernhard said:
Please note the words "not normally" :!:
 
Rohan said:
The Fireflake Blue NOS Fastback tank that Norvil had for sale recently seemed to have the flakes incorporated into the fibreglass.

We need more samples of genuine tanks, who knows what may have happened to some of them over the past 40+ years...

Bernhard said:
Re; fibreglass tanks. These are not normally painted but come with a coloured Gel coat. Hence you do not have to paint them. HTH.

B+Bogus said:
Not strictly true - I have proof!
Yes, the silver ones were flake in the gelcoat, also the straight colours, I.e., yellow & orange, but not the Fireflake blues - The flakes were definitely painted on.
Bernhard said:
Please note the words "not normally" :!:

Until the need arises to attack the paintwork with sandpaper it's really difficult to say, and I'm sure we'll never put this one to bed, but I repainted a fastback tank last year, and sanded through the blue flake to a black basecoat. Had it been in the gelcoat it wouldn't have done this - I did a silver 'S' tank where the flakes were definitely in the gelcoat - no colour change with sanding. I'm no fibreglass expert, but as I understand it the gelcoat goes on pretty thick.
The blue wears through pretty rapidly and is a fine layer under a layer of clear:

Why is my paint doing this?


Why is my paint doing this?


Note there are a couple of patches on the 'S' tank where the lacquer wasn't broken through, and the flake still looks good underneath.

The NOS sidepanels I saw were a little orange-peely, which I doubt was a reflection of the mould surface, based on other 'glass sidepanels I've worked with.
Didn't sand through those... :shock:
I have to admit I've never seen a NOS fibreglass tank, but I'm pretty confident the ones I worked with here had just experienced typical wear & tear, and hadn't been painted before.

Why is my paint doing this?


Sanding through silver flake just reveals more silver flake, hence why it's OK to just leave it as gelcoat, but any other colour is a total no-no, as the pigment layer on the flakes gets taken off, revealing the aluminium substrate... and a repeat of the painting process :roll:

I find these discussions useful, as some new stuff can turn up to prove me wrong, and I really like the industrial archaeology thing :wink:

Having said that, if you want a metalflake Norton, you'll need to get it painted!
In my experience, the only satisfactory way of doing this is with 2-pack clear, which needs very careful handling.
The only way this will deteriorate is due to issues with the substrate - it won't fade, and good quality lacquer doesn't chip very easily - although cheap stuff isn't as scuff-resistant.

Coincidentally, I have a tank (or two) on order for when they arrive in the UK - just deciding on schemes...
 
IMO..... Once you have finished with the "industrial archaeology thing" get the paint stripper out and remove all that 70's/80's/90's paint and start afresh.. Paint on paint on paint on paint is only a disaster waiting to happen like can be seen here so many times.. If your not up to using isocyanate type paint and familiar with "todays" paints, then take it to the local smash repair/painter joint and have it done properly.. If you want to do it DIY then do a short course at night school .....

Whatever you do, dont think a "rattle can" can every produce a quality job...

But then theres that "horses to water" saying. :) :) :) :)
Why is my paint doing this?
 
olChris said:
IMO..... Once you have finished with the "industrial archaeology thing" get the paint stripper out and remove all that 70's/80's/90's paint and start afresh.. Paint on paint on paint on paint is only a disaster waiting to happen like can be seen here so many times.. If your not up to using isocyanate type paint and familiar with "todays" paints, then take it to the local smash repair/painter joint and have it done properly.. If you want to do it DIY then do a short course at night school .....

Whatever you do, dont think a "rattle can" can every produce a quality job... But then theres that "horses to water" saying. :) :) :) :)

+1, with one exception - I wouldn't take anything more chemically aggressive than sandpaper to anything fibreglass.
Apart from issues of the stripper attacking the fibreglass, I actually enjoy working through the layers :wink:
Archaeology again - dating the colours to the favourite of the day.

Like an old teddy-buy friend of mine once said - 'it's great, I keep coming back into fashion!'
 
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+1, with one exception - I wouldn't take anything more chemically aggressive than sandpaper to anything fibreglass.

That is wrong... I have used paint stripper many, many times on fibreglass with no ill effect.. Apart from when my scraper/wire brush scores the gelcoat (and itchy feet).. You can by all means "fluff" around dissecting the paint layers for interest sake but when it comes time to repaint, start afresh with nil paint residue... IMO..
 
When I sanded my FF Blue tank (because it was covered with black paint... don't ask) it ended up a lot like what B+ shows on the blue panels and even the silver tank he sanded. The flake was still there, but the whole tank was silvery colored, the blue pretty much disappeared. That's what I started with to put primer paint on, I'm assuming I was down pretty close to the fiberglass, but don't know.

I've been thinking hard about one of the new tanks, but I may try once more and have the tank painted over the MetalSpecks with 2 pack. I do worry that since I have the early bike that has the short turning radius (the steering stop is pretty much the lower tree against the headstock) and the fork tubes may hit the new tank, don't know. I'll have to see what the local paint shop will charge me or I may do it myself. I figure the old tank is worth one more try, but that still leaves me with a tank I have to put e-free fuel in. If I get a new metal tank, I probably would have it pro painted, which means I'd have to do the panels too and that's another $6-700. Right now the bike is running fine, so I'm not messing with it right away, I can deal with it and the F/G tank is working fine, other than the looks and having to buy avgas.

But like I said, RMD is hitting me this year and I think that's about $7-10K that I need to take out of my retirement funds and what to do with it other than pay taxes?

Dave
 
Thought I'd chime in here since in the 70s to early 80s I did much fiberglass work - working in the autobody field for 15 years. When working on a Corvette, we used special paint stripper that was intended for glass. Most of the Vettes I worked on were older ones, still with their original Acrylic Lacquer paint. We needed to be careful not to gouge the fiberglass since the more aggressive strippers would slightly soften it. You can use regular stripper on glass but take it easy. As far as Acrylic Lacquer not holding up, I still have paint jobs with nearly 40 years on them, that crazing or cracking is either non-existent or minimal. The secret is for the painter to not "crowd the coat". Take plenty of time in between coats on a custom or high quality paint job, and a lot of the crappy problems do not exist - along with high quality paint and substrates. Back in the day, if you had a nice quality show car, chances are the owner would request lacquer at a premium in cost. GM cars were painted with the Fisher Body "Magic Mirror" Acrylic Lacquer paint jobs, and a lot of the upscale models were stunning in quality. Ford, Mopar and the rest used acrylic enamels. Those were painted with no quick drying, and no rubbing like the lacquer had. As time marched on, the EPA was making lacquer on the endangered list. GM went to short cuts like the "bake-sand-bake" method that the lacquer was applied, lightly sanded with very fine paper, and re-baked to make the fine sanding marks diminish. These were lower quality paint jobs, and nothing like the old ones. As time went on they experimented with water based paints, and early versions of basecoat/clearcoat which is pretty much the norm today. When I painted my MKIII Interstate tank, I still could get acrylic lacquer, and used a very high quality slow application sort of process. It has painted on black and red stripes over the silver. I did not use a clear lacquer over the sliver. It was actually a 1977 Honda color that matched the Norton color pretty close. I always got a lot of compliments on it, and several thought it was NOS, since the clear coat just gives it a different look. A few places still shoot lacquer, and you can still source it if you are willing to pay the price. For the extremely fussy, it is used on certain GM show cars that the owner wants to use the same process for the rivet counters to approve. It's bad reputation came from body shops trying to cram out a lot of work in a short time. Looked amazing on a quick job, but just didn't hold up very well. Didn't mean to turn this into War and Peace.
 
Yummy to the tummy on vintage Corvettes and finishes. Dry well between coats is a motto to follow. I'm looking into Hydro film dips if they come in b bright colors. Seems more cost effective to buy DIY paint shop if room to do it in and more time than money to waste.
 
about 40 years ago I bought my first Commando. It was Vitamin C [ plain orange ]. the f/glass tank had been dinged and badly repaired so I ground out the rotten f/glass and redid the area with epoxy and mesh. Has a panel beater mate finish off the surface, then primed in grey and painted the colour in enamel. Its still as good now as it was 40 years ago apart from the slight blemish I caused when I first painted it. Maybe enamel is the answer for f/galass. who knows.
 
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