What’s the best none Norton Norton ?

Yeah, I did buy for performance.
Maybe not 2020 Gixxer 1000 performance but my gimmicky retro beats my 05 superbike in most onroad performance areas including 60-80 mph roll on (3.0 secs vs 3.7sec). It also beats a 2010 Aprilia 1000rsvr factory in the 60-80 roll on.(3.1 sec)
0-60 is almost identical at around 3 seconds both bikes or pretty much any modern sport bike, for that matter.
I like to do spirited riding in the mountains so top gear roll on and zero to sixty are more useful to me than a 180 mph top speed.
I can't begin use the 140 mph top speed this bike has, but I do sometimes use the all of that midrange acceleration and handling. It's great fun.
I see it as having the cake ( looks) and eating it too ( great performance)

Yea. Ok.

I enjoy using a bit more torque than that bike has.
Especially if it comes in lower down then holds.
Probably not going to get it with 820 ccs

And not terribly light for an 820.
Claimed wet weight is 453lb which means about 475.
Typically add about 20lbs to Ducati wet weights to get reality according to Sportbike Performance scales.

Glen

worntorn said:

I enjoy using a bit more torque than that bike has.
Especially if it comes in lower down then holds.
Probably not going to get it with 820 ccs

And not terribly light for an 820.
Claimed wet weight is 453lb which means about 475.
Typically add about 20lbs to Ducati wet weights to get reality according to Sportbike Performance scales.

Glen

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It weighs about the same or a little less than the 961s "actual" not advertised wet weight. Puts out 30 more HP. Same frame as the 1200S that I did ride. I assure you, the handling is way better. However, the Monster is not intended to be a sport bike. It was designed for the 45 and up crowd that likes a spirited ride.

A Duc sport bike would dust it. Also, like I said, I never rode it, but did the 1200S which at 60, I don't feel the need for 155 HP. So....this is a non norton what would we want thread. IMHO....possibly the 821

Sorry, I thought you were comparing the non-Norton Duc to a non-norton speed twin.

Glen

Well Pretty much anything with 2 wheels and an engine attracts me!!! ... there are only Japan made bikes for sale locally it an hour and half drive for Ducati , Triumph, BMW dealer .... there is a small dealer on way to Peggy’s Cove that sells Aprillia and some nice trials and dirt bikes , he is British I think , good fella .... I don’t buy bikes based on dealer location , more like if I think I can learn to work on ‘em and perform the major maintenance most bikes call for .... Ducati can be labour intensive and expensive if you get dealer to do it all , the closest Guzzi dealer is in Quebec , I thought long and hard before picking up the Griso .... I love the Speed Twin from what I have read only , got to drive to Moncton to see one , right now because of lockdown that is impossible .... basically all the bikes that have been discussed in this thread would be keepers for someone like me only I am cash challenged , still kinda cool to see what other folks opinions are of the expansive number of bikes that could replace our Nortons , although I don’t own a new 961 for reason mentioned above , actually never have owned a new bike, always picking up other folks discarded treasure , haha !

I've learned that the specs can be really misleading. They are what gets touted on forums as though the numbers are everything, however there's a lot that the numbers can't convey. I'm referring to performance, not some vague sensation.

For example, we put two bikes against each other for straight line acceleration, BMW and Triumph.
The BMW is rated 110 bhp and 505 dry weight
Triumph is 97 bhp and 448 dry.
The Triumph rider is +50 lbs so bike and rider weights are same +-

On paper the BMW should be the quickest.
In reality it got left behind like it was stuck in neutral. Every gear, every rpm.
It wasn't even close.

So the numbers don't seem to mean that much once you are out on the road.
They are good for discussion purposes, but you really need to ride with others and get a bit competitive to see what you've actually got!


Glen

worntorn said:

I've learned that the specs can be really misleading.

Click to expand...

Yes. Peak horsepower is not necessarily meaningless, but can be very unrepresentative of overall power curve and thus acceleration. At what RPM does peak torque range begin? What about gearing? Gearing is one of the most significant factors in acceleration. For decades Ducati geared bikes super high so they would pass noise and emission testing. So, when you bought a Duc, you changed gearing and exhaust, and if possible, ECU. So, simple power to weight ratios based on peak horsepower and manufacturer's suggested dry weight are weak indicators of performance

worntorn said:

Sorry, I thought you were comparing the non-Norton Duc to a non-norton speed twin.

Glen

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Ah. There lies the confusion. Speed Twin is at the top of my short list.
Cheers.

I don’t think Ducati spec claims are as far out as they used to be.

The claimed wet weight of the 1200s is 461lbs.

Mine has the cat removed and carbon cans in place of the stock hefty things, can’t guarantee tank was full to the brim either. But it weighed 448lbs on my bathroom scales.

My 961, with some weight saving, was still just over 500lbs.

Regarding the 821, it’s virtually the same weight as the 1200, but the 1200 produces 92lb-ft at 7250. That’s 26lb-ft more than the 821 at 500rpm less. And, de-cat and Termi’s increases the lb-ft a LOT. I don’t have a figure, I just know from riding that the difference is substantial, and obvious. I did see some dyno charts that seems to show not a massive gain in peak torque, but big gains lower down resulting in a huge flat spread of torque and power from about 4500 to 9500 rpm. But back in the real world, it seems seldom necessary to go above 7000 for me. So you don’t have to be a peak HP nut to enjoy the 1200.

However, although I quite like the ‘functional ruggedness’ of the new Monsters, they’re not a patch on the air cooled motors, and they can’t be called pretty by any standards!

Fast Eddie said:

it weighed 448lbs on my bathroom scales

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Your bathroom scales go to 448lbs!!!!

I agree with Nigel , my ST3s was treated to the DP mods when new , DP ECU , open air box and Carbon cans ... does lighten things up , the “S” also gives some weight saving with lighter wheels and alloy swing arm ... base specs say 107 hp and 72 ftlb torque .... it not a heavy bike by any stretch , not sure on power improvement with DP kit but it there , even more so once you lower the gearing a bit to 15-43 ... while not the most beautiful bike in my eyes , I still hear lots of comments from sidewalk folks as to its beauty .... with panniers off it makes a great replacement for our Nortons and does out perform them in all measurable ways , no problem .....

oldbeezer said:

Your bathroom scales go to 448lbs!!!!

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Actually, they go up to 400lbs.

But you only weigh one wheel at a time using the bathroom scale method.

Wife bought a S2R 1000 some years ago
Loads of torque from the 2 valve motor
Very reliable and does everything very very well
Good bike and not expensive these days when most want the latest most powerful
It’s a keeper

Graeme

Fast Eddie said:

I don’t think Ducati spec claims are as far out as they used to be.

The claimed wet weight of the 1200s is 461lbs.

Mine has the cat removed and carbon cans in place of the stock hefty things, can’t guarantee tank was full to the brim either. But it weighed 448lbs on my bathroom scales.

My 961, with some weight saving, was still just over 500lbs.

Regarding the 821, it’s virtually the same weight as the 1200, but the 1200 produces 92lb-ft at 7250. That’s 26lb-ft more than the 821 at 500rpm less. And, de-cat and Termi’s increases the lb-ft a LOT. I don’t have a figure, I just know from riding that the difference is substantial, and obvious. I did see some dyno charts that seems to show not a massive gain in peak torque, but big gains lower down resulting in a huge flat spread of torque and power from about 4500 to 9500 rpm. But back in the real world, it seems seldom necessary to go above 7000 for me. So you don’t have to be a peak HP nut to enjoy the 1200.

However, although I quite like the ‘functional ruggedness’ of the new Monsters, they’re not a patch on the air cooled motors, and they can’t be called pretty by any standards!

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No. I don't find them particular good looking either. Not ugly but certainly no 961. But man, are they fun to ride. The Norton feels slightly top heavy to me, the 1200S required no effort in the turns and twisties....that and the front wheel had no problem coming up, however unintentional as that was, very manageable.

Picked up my choice of the best non norton today.
A 2020 Ducati Diavel 1260S
159hp
95 lb /ft
I’m told 1 of 5 in the USA in red all because of the Covid shut down.
Comfortable.
Fast.
Technology.
Comes with Full Ohlins and Brembos.
Mods to come soon.

As non-Nortons go I guess mine is as dissimilar as is possible! This old girl never misses a beat. 18000 km in a 42 day circumnavigation of Aus without missing a beat. Tarmac turns to gravel or sand (that happens a lot in Aus) and no problem, just keep going. Touring in relative comfort or scratching after my mates, it’s fair to say that this class of bikes are the most versatile ever made. 80000 km and rising fast! Helps having a versatile turn key reliable bike when your first ride is a Norton 961! Not bristling with technology, but I’ve never felt the need for lights that come on when you corner or for wheelie control!! Just saying!

Mmmmmm! My VIP status seems to have expired - picture to follow, or you could guess!

Voodooo said:

View attachment 15988 View attachment 15989 Picked up my choice of the best non norton today.
A 2020 Ducati Diavel 1260S
159hp
95 lb /ft
I’m told 1 of 5 in the USA in red all because of the Covid shut down.
Comfortable.
Fast.
Technology.
Comes with Full Ohlins and Brembos.
Mods to come soon.

Click to expand...

WOW , You have gone off the deep end as they say ! No lack of good handling , power or torque there hey ? Don't forget to give the Norton 961's some love now and then. I am really surprised that you didn't buy the Indian FTR 1200 .

TonyA said:

I am really surprised that you didn't buy the Indian FTR 1200 .

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Why?

I thought he spoke highly of it. I may be confusing with someone else .