welded wideline frame question

lcrken said:

So maybe we could summarize (again!) the real facts, not opinions?

1. Manx featherbed frames were all made of 531 manganese-moly (not chrome-moly) steel tube that was bronze welded.

2. All production road bike wideline and slimeline featherbed frames were arc-welded/electric welded mild steel, even if acotrel has never seen one.

3. All Commando frames are arc-welded/electric-welded steel.

What could be simpler? Ken

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What the F*uck!!!!!!
Where the hell did you get the information that featherbeds were arc-welded/electric welded :?:
You are clearly off your rocker :!: :shock:

Bernhard said:

lcrken said:

So maybe we could summarize (again!) the real facts, not opinions?

1. Manx featherbed frames were all made of 531 manganese-moly (not chrome-moly) steel tube that was bronze welded.

2. All production road bike wideline and slimeline featherbed frames were arc-welded/electric welded mild steel, even if acotrel has never seen one.

3. All Commando frames are arc-welded/electric-welded steel.

What could be simpler? Ken

Click to expand...

What the F*uck!!!!!!
Where the hell did you get the information that featherbeds were arc-welded/electric welded :?:
You are clearly off your rocker :!: :shock:

Click to expand...

I get the feeling you haven't been following this thread closely enough, or you'd have known where Ken got the information from.

Bernhard said:

What the F*uck!!!!!!
Where the hell did you get the information that featherbeds were arc-welded/electric welded :?:
You are clearly off your rocker :!: :shock:

Click to expand...

As LAB has pointed out, the main reference is Ken Sprayson, who is really the ultimate authority on featherbed frames, but he's not the only one.

Just for clarity, let me point out that I did not say all featherbed frames are arc-welded. I said all "production road bike featherbed frames" were.

Which production road bike featherbed frames do you think were joined in some other manner?

Yep, another poster that doesn't know if their wheat or chaff.
And doesn't read, or comprehend, posts.

I've got a 54 boltup wideline.
Mild steel tubing, with STEEL welds.
Like the vast majority (98 % ?) of Norton featherbeds.
(not precisely sure how many featherbed manxs and inters they made)

Interesting thread.
Curiosity has to ask,who posting is a 'internet welder and who are actual coded welders ?

Time Warp said:

Interesting thread.
Curiosity has to ask,who posting is a 'internet welder and who are actual coded welders ?

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I have a certificate in welding - not the full trade course.
Including pressure vessels - had to pass the 3000 psi test.
Only for my hobby use though.

And have a few stray ultraviolet burns to prove it.
Lesson No 1 - always ensure your coat and gloves are fully fastened, NO gaps anywhere.

Since we have some knowledgeable folks on here regarding Featherbed frames, I have just acquired a slimline Atlas frame and I note that the upper engine mounting cross tube is welded in place rather than secured with a long stud and nuts, can anyone confirm that this is correct for the later models?

Just to be absolutely clear to all and sundry the featherbed frames were joined like this, using a brazing rod containing additions of Manganese and Tin giving it 'free flowing' characteristics. It’s particularly suitable for use with the 'gas flux' process which is being used here too;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlLV0P6uGDw


even Dave Dregens of Dresta Autos uses this method, as did Peckett & Macnab e.t.c.

I hope this as clear as mud :!:

dave M said:

Since we have some knowledgeable folks on here regarding Featherbed frames, I have just acquired a slimline Atlas frame and I note that the upper engine mounting cross tube is welded in place rather than secured with a long stud and nuts, can anyone confirm that this is correct for the later models?

Click to expand...

Just mentioned in another thread by a new member, one use for the removeable feature is to slip the rubber bands on, that hold to the lower bungs of the old style central oil tank. Not sure if there are other uses... (so loose would be an earlier model frame, welded would be later, like my '66)

Bernhard said:

Just to be absolutely clear to all and sundry the featherbed frames were joined like this, using a brazing rod containing additions of Manganese and Tin giving it 'free flowing' characteristics. It’s particularly suitable for use with the 'gas flux' process which is being used here too;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlLV0P6uGDw


even Dave Dregens of Dresta Autos uses this method, as did Peckett & Macnab e.t.c.

I hope this as clear as mud :!:

Click to expand...

Not so, Bernhard. The Manx racing featherbed frames were bronze welded (brazed, if you prefer) as in the video. So are many of the non-factory repro featherbed frames (Degens, McIntosh, Unity, Framecrafters, etc.). The production road featherbed frames (88, 99, Atlas) were electric welded with steel filler. Big difference.

Ken

grandpaul said:

dave M said:

Since we have some knowledgeable folks on here regarding Featherbed frames, I have just acquired a slimline Atlas frame and I note that the upper engine mounting cross tube is welded in place rather than secured with a long stud and nuts, can anyone confirm that this is correct for the later models?

Click to expand...

Just mentioned in another thread by a new member, one use for the removeable feature is to slip the rubber bands on, that hold to the lower bungs of the old style central oil tank. Not sure if there are other uses... (so loose would be an earlier model frame, welded would be later, like my '66)

Click to expand...

"The old central style oil tank" was only a factory fitting on a few short years of manxes.
And never on slimlines, although I'd be prepared to be educated on this - maybe a daytona bike or 2. ?

Anything on a road bike has been cobbled up by someone..... ?

My orginal 57 Wideline looks like it was brazed welded and the same as my 60 Slimeline, but I can't remember if the 57 was bronze welded or steel as it has been over 32 years ago sinse I painted it, my Slimeline was painted last year and didn't see any bronze or steel welds as I painted over the orginal blue paint, but the welds look like it was brazed welded, but all I care about is how well these frames handle the tight corners at high speed, but I have been riding my Wideline for over 33 years now and have never had any problems with welds craking or coming apart.

Ashley

Unless you clean the paint off the welds and wirebrush them off or grind into them, you are going to be as in the dark as Bernard seems to be. ?
Just looking at them with a coat of paint or 6 over them, they could be bonded together with chewing gum !

Slimlines are entirely plain-old welded, so any bronze or brass anywhere is a previous owner bodging into them.
If they have been brazed, with brass, then they could be downright dangerous.
Brass is quite suitable for lugged frames - the tubes poke into the lugs, and the brass holds them in there, quite strongly.
But bronze is as strong as mild steel, and is built up into fillets, while brass is brittle in thin sections by itself.
And brass can't generally be built up into fillets, it just flows away.

My 54 bolt-up wideline 88 frame has nice clean steel welds.
Exactly as Nortons said that all roadgoing featherbeds were made.
Lets not pretend its some fancy unobtanium manx frame, with exotica bronze fillets gas-welded frame....

And for those doubting thomas's, this is a freshly wirebrushed off weld on a 54 bolt-up wideline.
Right hand side, under the front of the tank, near the steering head.
Steel weld on steel tubes.
Exactly as Nortons said they were.



Frame in primer is starting to show some rust, time for some action on this project !

and thats the exact same welds the Slimelines had, i know, I've chipped off the original weld slag or flux.

ashman said:

My orginal 57 Wideline looks like it was brazed welded .......the welds look like it was brazed welded,

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They're just an example of neat arc welding.

but all I care about is how well these frames handle the tight corners at high speed, but I have been riding my Wideline for over 33 years now and have never had any problems with welds craking or coming apart.

Ashley

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They do sometimes crack, where the trouser plate gusset is welded to the down tubes. Good place to check.