WAS PAUL DUNSTALL MAD ?

Matt Spencer · Nov 7, 2013

MAD ? ? ?

well , perhaps . . . . it was the Petrol Fumes . . . :lol: :x

http://vintagemotorcyclesonline.com/fea ... ii?start=3

acotrel · Nov 7, 2013

Wakeup, I don't usually fess up about where I have worked. I'm primarily an industrial chemist and mainly worked on materials and processes in Government Aircraft Factories, Fisherman's Bend and Ordnance Factory Maribyrnong as well as Explosives Factory Maribyrnong. All defence stuff. In Australia we currently have a very high dollar which is being blamed for our manufacturing industry moving offshore. That is not the real reason - it is the disingenuous approach to ISO9000 and risk management generally. Germany has a highly unionized workforce with high wages, yet doesn't have our problem because they sell at the top end of the market and justify their overheads. Our OHS and Environmental requirements which apply in all states are enough to send industry offshore. Slowly our guys are coming to realize that you cannot beat the Chinese and Indians at their own game. You cannot kill workers in Australia to make a profit, and the way forward is to move further up-market in the quality and product safety senses . If our dollar falls substantially, it means that our local economy has collapsed. It might reduce manufacturing costs and improve competitiveness, however it is the downwards spiral.

Don Tovey · Nov 7, 2013

I have to say I purchased a lot of dunstall bits for my Atlas. I used to ride over to the shop in Eltam, South. London and gaze through the shop Window. It was fashionable at the time to customise Your bike and dunstall had a big selection of items. I had swept back exhausts and dunstall deibel silencers. Dunstall seat, half fairing, mudguard, clip ons, rear sets etc and I thoght it looked great. I was a sixteen year old kid who now knows he was sucked in by fashion and spent too much. Most of the stuff was poorly made and needed fileing down to fit properly. I gave up with his stuff when the dunstall pistons melted and ruined my barrels. He was a good salesman but not so good at customer relations. His customising bits went out of fashion eventually so he went into property speculation where he did quite well. He probably lives quite well now because of astute business sence and good luck to him.

wakeup · Nov 7, 2013

acotrel said:
...............That is not the real reason - it is the disingenuous approach to ISO9000 and risk management generally.............

Not wrong there. I was involved in changing the workshop from what it was to what it is.

I was frequently told by the accounting suits, that its cheaper to send everything offshore, we can't afford anything, we are a risk averse business and so on.

Fortunately we had a CEO who took everything with a pinch of salt, did his research, and as a Yorkshireman he had a very well developed bulls**t detector. He put the right people in the right places with the right instructions and bingo.

Anyway that's all history now

cheers
wakeup

RennieK · Nov 7, 2013

Don Tovey said:
I Most of the stuff was poorly made and needed fileing down to fit properly. I gave up with his stuff when the dunstall pistons melted and ruined my barrels.

Sorry to hear about your pistons melting, I hadn't hear of this issue with the Italian GP made pistons on the 810 kit.

The biggest complains have been the barrels themselves which seemed to stand up to bolt on go fast street use but couldn't handle drag/circuit racing rigors when combined with other mods and frequent tear downs.

I've had the clip-ons, rear sets with mount plates, 2-1-2 system, silencers, fairing, tank and seat. All fitted pretty well with out the need for fettering. The fiberglass seat and fairing were very light and so didn't stand up well in nasty crashes but they were nice and light.

I have an 810 kit and a few cams and fully intend to fit in an engine if I ever get time and some extra cash needed to do the job. After hearing all the negative comments you can bet I'll be feeling like I'm driving on broken glass but there are a few of these on the road with good track records so what the hey, I've got the stuff, may as well find out for myself.

wakeup said:
acotrel said:

...............That is not the real reason - it is the disingenuous approach to ISO9000 and risk management generally.............

Click to expand...

Not wrong there. I was involved in changing the workshop from what it was to what it is.

I was frequently told by the accounting suits, that its cheaper to send everything offshore, we can't afford anything, we are a risk averse business and so on.

Fortunately we had a CEO who took everything with a pinch of salt, did his research, and as a Yorkshireman he had a very well developed bulls**t detector. He put the right people in the right places with the right instructions and bingo.

Anyway that's all history now

cheers
wakeup

I just joined netflix yesterday and watched "Death by China" It lays it out like we all have known from the bits and pieces we see. You're lucky it was a local CEO cause the big companies that migrate have CEo's from different nationalities and there is no sense of countryhood with them, it's all about their bonuses in the few years they know they will be there till they can move on to the next opportunity.

The film slaps ceo's and gov through out but I was glad to see them point to us individual viewers and caution us to look for the coo on the goods we buy. It may be to late to prevent the inevibility of our kids working for chinese bosses and companies but maybe not. If you believe in the Power Of One we can shake this movement. What if no one bought chi manufacturered goods on a specific day or better yet the last week of each month? There is a family in the video that doesn't own a micro wave because they couldn't find one not made in chi. We could rattle this machine.

wakeup · Nov 8, 2013

RennieK said:
You're lucky it was a local CEO cause the big companies that migrate have CEo's from different nationalities and there is no sense of countryhood with them, it's all about their bonuses in the few years they know they will be there till they can move on to the next opportunity.

The boss was a Yorkshireman. Those know know, will tell you that the world consists of two types of people, those who were born in Yorkshire, and those who wish they had been.

(I'm the exception to that rule)

The company was the Australian arm of a UK company. I like to think that common sense and the facts beat The Accountants. There's little doubt, sadly, that The Accountants will ultimately win, but it's up to us peasants to fight them all the way.

cheers
wakeup

mike996 · Nov 8, 2013

"That's what you have to do if you are going to make machined parts, in a highly competitive, highly controlled environment."

Wonder why old Norton parts, made back in the day without CNC machines seem to fit just fine while new parts, allegedly made using modern technology, frequently do not. :roll:

acotrel · Nov 8, 2013

Mike, In our old Ordnance Factory we had the complete British system of running machine shops. The main problem was failure to recognize prototypes (configuration management ). Most of our product was extremely high quality - 'fit for purpose with obvious attention to detail', however the pain of making it was also extreme, and the waste was horrific.
I have few reservations about using Chinese product, however I would inspect it very closely before using it in critical applications. 'You cannot inspect quality into a product' and what a lot of people don't recognize is that 'continual improvement' depends on maintaining a good level of industrial democracy - 'authoritarianism stifles creativity'. I believe that is where the Chinese and Indians will ultimately fail. I suggest that most of their modern ideas come from elsewhere. I know they are using our Australian standards for engineering etc. and do a lot of opportunistic reverse engineering to increase their product range. We can win this economic war, however we cannot compete at their level playing their game, we must move up-market towards extreme business excellence. I suggest it starts and finishes with standards-based documented management systems which should be used as training manuals, and not simply window dressing.

http://www.angelfire.com/biz2/AcotrelDirectory/

wakeup · Nov 8, 2013

mike996 said:
Wonder why old Norton parts, made back in the day without CNC machines seem to fit just fine while new parts, allegedly made using modern technology, frequently do not. :roll:

Because a part is made on a CNC machine does not automatically mean that it's "right". For a start what is "right". Whatever is being made must have a tolerance, that's a fact of life. Take for instance a top yoke, designed to be milled out of some al. alloy. There are three features which must be very closely toleranced, the two bores for the fork legs, and the central bore for the steering stem. They must all be parallel, of the right size, and in the right place. The machining process alone will probably, but not necessarily provide the parallelism. To make things even more exciting the three bores in the top yoke should exactly match the three holes in the bottom yoke.
CNC machines have two major attributes. One is called "accuracy" the other is called "repeatability", they are both important (as in vital). Accuracy defines how close to a desired spot the machine can achieve, repeatability defines how close to a previously achieved spot the machine can get. The better CNC machines will have a closed loop feedback system, this is a huge help in achieving both accuracy and repeatability, but there will still be an error.......that error is related to the tightest tolerance that the machine can achieve.

For the sake of the argument, lets say that the CNC machine has an accuracy of +/-0.02mm. There is obviously no point in attempting to make a part on this machine which has a tolerance of +/-0.01, some parts will, by chance be o.k. but the majority will be out of tolerance.

The problem is that accuracy, repeatability and closed loop control systems are expensive. That's why the price range for superficially similar machine tools is huge. For instance, a simple 3 axis vertical mill with accuracy of +/-0.2mm might cost (say) $50,000. An accurate but otherwise essentially similar mill but with an accuracy of 0.02mm might cost (say) $300,000. The numbers are hypothetical, but I think that the relativity is about right

So the short answer to Mike996 is that the wrong machine was used to make parts that don't fit, assuming that the drawing was toleranced correctly! There are approximately 1,001 other ways that a part can be made not to fit, but this is a common way.

Sorry to have warbled on, but not everything can be reduced to a one liner, unless your name is Bob Newhart.

cheers
wakeup

acotrel · Nov 9, 2013

Wakeup, there is something which is missing from Australian standards on dimensioning and tolerancing. It is ' the maximum permissible measurement error must be less than one third of the specied tolerance of the measurand (appears on the drawing). This relates to the methods used to measure machined parts as well as a lot of other things, and it is not widely known. I only found this out by talking to our National Measurement Laboratories in Sydney about calibrating measuring equipment. It is a minor however very important detail ( i.e. don't measure your crankshaft journals with a ruler ).
There is a handbook on dimensioning and tolerancing controlled by Standards Australia, which was developed through contact with the British scientists during WW2, that small detail was not included.

wakeup · Nov 9, 2013

acotrel said:
Wakeup, there is something which is missing from Australian standards on dimensioning and tolerancing. It is ' the maximum permissible measurement error must be less than one third of the specied tolerance of the measurand (appears on the drawing). This relates to the methods used to measure machined parts as well as a lot of other things, and it is not widely known. I only found this out by talking to our National Measurement Laboratories in Sydney about calibrating measuring equipment. It is a minor however very important detail ( i.e. don't measure your crankshaft journals with a ruler ).
There is a handbook on dimensioning and tolerancing controlled by Standards Australia, which was developed through contact with the British scientists during WW2, that small detail was not included.

I can vaguely remember this from my days in the DO. There was also a defence standard for preparing drawings (DefAust 5085), which I think has now been absorbed into the blob, whoops Australian Standard. Standards Australia have very close links with at least the British Standards organisation. My old Chief Draftsman was on the committee of Standards Australia, at least the committee responsible for engineering and drawing standards. He reckoned that most AS and corresponding BS were identical, he enjoyed the occasional trip back home to London from Australia, to visit his old friends and relis oh and spend some time on Standards.
Then there was the MilSpec organisation..........

cheers
wakeup

komet · Nov 10, 2013

Dunstall mentioned in a recent interview that he regretted not basing his business in the US. Said it would have been much more profitable.

acotrel · Nov 10, 2013

I would point out the difference between the WW2 Spitfire and a Mustang fighters. The Spitfires were built in jigs by women, the Mustangs on production lines with concentration on industrial engineering. It is a different mindset. British Standard 4891 on Quality Assurance was a base document for ISO9000, however the guy who took Quality management to Japan was Deming - an American. Quality management is about gaining repeat business, through managing risks and delighting customers. America has an advantage in economies of scale - the overheads involved in doing a job right are more easly justified. Paul Dunstall is correct, he missed a really big opportunity. Creativity is a key component in product improvement, and he had plenty of it. I believe the Americans would have backed him to the hilt.

acotrel · Nov 10, 2013

The opportunities are still there. This photo is of a bike built in America to use the Chinese pit bike motors in a road racer. In Australia motorcycle politics make it difficult to race such a bike. There are few constructors' classes , however this bike would almost get into historic racing as a period 4 CT110 Honda clone, and would certainly be eligible for bucket racing. It is a very easy build, and there are lots of cheap hot-up parts available :

benz · Nov 15, 2013

Dunstall provided just as much reliability as the rest of the british motorcycle industry. I love the remaining pieces of my dad's 810...even the 810 barrel I use for a paperweight. Being cast from leftover beer cans did not help much.

Regarding the Dunstall disc brake system, the set up on my bike is absolutely top notch both in form and function. The master cylinder comes from a CB750 and if I remember correctly, the pads match as well.

Some of his accessories were brilliant, others were not. To those saying all Dunstall components are rubbish....phoooeeey. Dunstall is an important piece of Norton history.

acotrel · Nov 17, 2013

I think the Dunstall 810 conversion was a very nice thing for it's time. A lot of that old special stuff had problems, fitting helicoils to it was fairly common practice. I reached a stage with my Triumph where the next step was making shorter aluminium barrels to suit the 9 stud head and shorter rods, that is about when I gave up on it. I had a set of Wellworthy Alfin barrels for the 8 stud head, however the stud position promoted cracks in the cast iron liner where it was tapped. Full credit to Dunstall, his big bore kit was a good effort even if it did have problems..

Bernhard · Nov 19, 2013

benz said:
Dunstall provided just as much reliability as the rest of the british motorcycle industry. I love the remaining pieces of my dad's 810...even the 810 barrel I use for a paperweight. Being cast from leftover beer cans did not help much.

Regarding the Dunstall disc brake system, the set up on my bike is absolutely top notch both in form and function. The master cylinder comes from a CB750 and if I remember correctly, the pads match as well.

Some of his accessories were brilliant, others were not. To those saying all Dunstall components are rubbish....phoooeeey. Dunstall is an important piece of Norton history. quote.

I am not trying to belittle Dunstall’s racetrack actseivements , nobody was a bigger fan than me in the 1970s as I had a motorcycle race season ticket to Brand’s Hatch and Mallory and used to follow his rider Ray Pickrell race success with a keen eye.

The published test of his 810 was a very good publicly stunt, but the average Joe who purchased his barrel kits could not get anywhere near this, as this bike was more likely to have been breathed on by his race engine tuner, with a fully ported cylinder head e.t.c.
As someone who purchased a lot of Dunstall equipment in the 1970s, including two camshafts that were to put it mildly a joke, a set of his high compression pistons for my Atlas of which one developed a crack below the gudgeon pin in about 2500 miles, then I must have been the most unluckiest customer ever to buy his Dunstall spares across his shop counter. Even one of the shop assistant commented to methat his parts were junk, so what does that tell you :?:

Do tell us Benz what spares did you ever purchase from the Paul Dunstall Organisation :?: ( as he liked to be known, just before his demist)

Rohan · Nov 19, 2013

Do pay attention Bernhard, you are addressing the wrong name ?

acotrel · Nov 19, 2013

It might just be that there are many of you.

Rohan · Nov 19, 2013

Even in kindergarden they teach the difference between gee and zee....

WAS PAUL DUNSTALL MAD ?

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