V4SS quality disaster

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TVS bought certain assets but not the liabilities of SG's Norton, notably the exception of customer deposits for unfulfilled orders was taken on as a lability by TVS. To ensure this they set up a new company instead of using the SG Norton company, different legal entities ensures clear boundaries covered by the purchase contract. The rest of the liabilities have stayed with SG's Norton with BDO as administrators and this includes repair of sub standard bikes. TVS do have issues with the assets they bought not being what they thought ie the Trademarks and the design rights but on the lability side they have done a better job.
 
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There were reviews of the old V4… all of them absolutely gushing with praise.

Dunno how SG did it but he had the worlds MC press eating out of his hand !
I was there with MCN over in the south of France when they was reviewing the bike for the big five page article. There was four of us, myself and my work mate, Adam "Chad" Childs and their photographer.
Apart from the fuel range and the various modes not being finalised, he genuinely loved the bike.
I most probably rode more of those v4's than anyone in the world..... and it did actually ride fantastically. The engine power delivery for me was a little too linear in that it took away the sensation of speed and excitement (I prefer the punch in the face impact that you get from a big v twin sports bike)....I never got off the bike thinking fuck me that's fast, but I was always really impressed with the handling.
In my opinon the best way to view the bike was as a custom bike build, not a finalised production bike. Each one was slightly different. If I had the cash, I'd still own one & just work my way through the issues..... much like a DMC-12 owner would have done in the 80's.
 

Clive

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In my opinon the best way to view the bike was as a custom bike build, not a finalised production bike. Each one was slightly different. If I had the cash, I'd still own one & just work my way through the issues..... much like a DMC-12 owner would have done in the 80's.
What's the saying? It's a dirty job but someone's got to do it?

Interesting that you say they were like a custom bike build as I've always likened them to individual race bike builds; the problem being that race bikes are built by experienced race bike mechanics who feel a direct responsibility for the safety of the rider and are constantly improving as a response to any issues/failings that arise.
 

Fast Eddie

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When are we gonna reach the bottom of the Garner story FFS? Just keeps getting worse and worse…
 

BritTwit

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Bad news yet again for V4SS owners.
A quick route to a new V4, buy a customer version of the RSV4 with Norton badging.
Stuff it into a Norton frame.
Viola, new Norton V4.
No engineering required.
 

Clive

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Bad news yet again for V4SS owners.
A quick route to a new V4, buy a customer version of the RSV4 with Norton badging.
Stuff it into a Norton frame.
Viola, new Norton V4.
No engineering required.
Or better still leave the engine in the rsv4 and transfer the badges across. You can then convert the v4ss into an attractive piece of furniture. A novelty high pressure drinks dispenser? Patio heater?
 
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That's not good news in my view . Can you imagine the difficulty getting any payment back from NMUL or the administrators ?
 
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Good morning folks and thanks for the add

I am part of the V4SS Gen1 Owners Group and it would be connect with other owners who are yet to join the group.

The aim of the group is to get Norton to work with owners to restore this bikes to the roads, leaving such beautiful bikes consigned to garages or static display is an utter waste.

You will recall the statements made by Norton Motorcycles that state they are working with owners; as an owner, I can assure you this is about as far from the truth as you can get. I have seen some comments that suggest we are seeking to damage the new business, this is certainly not the case. In fact I would argue that by not putting these bikes back on the road is the only way to restore belief in the business.

Our analysis of the defects indicates that roughly half related to the same engine and gearbox they will be using in the second generation V4SS. We have sought to have Norton Motorcycles explain why defects that are resolved in Generation Two cant be resolved in the Generation One bikes. Robert and his team again remain silent on this. Perhaps because Robert was Head of Motorcycles at Ricardo when the Designed the engine for Stuart Garner & Simon Skinner, its not been confirmed but we have been told Ricardo also built the engines and Norton bench tested!

Turning to the non-engine and gearbox issues, we have clear concerns around the Swinging Arm and Frame, but again they have to be addressed in Generation Two motorcycles. And we believe that once Norton resolves these issues, fixes to the other matters should easily flow.
Norton Motorcycles is now part of a global automotive business with substantial resources; they are now free from the constraints of the previous company. Therefore with the wealth of Research & Development and associated supporting engineering capabilities at their disposal, the assertion that they cannot address defects in the Generation One bikes is absurd.

I would argue that not only are they capable of addressing Generation One issues, but they have most probably addressed every one of them on a mule bike. This assumption is not unreasonable; they would wish to ensure they understood the Generation One bike defects and verify fixes to extend into the Generation Two pre-production designs. Perhaps we will suddenly see Simon Skinners private V4SS restored to the road as a result of this engineering effort, which would be a cruel turn of events for each owner deprived of this use of their own V4SS.

Should this be true, then the refusal to address the Generation One issues is financially motivated. Let us not forget TVS Norton have not only sought to transfer the financial loss to owners of £2.4m while saying they would offer owners the opportunity to purchase a Generation Two bike at a special price. Considering inflation, a £44,000 motorcycle in 2016 would now cost £50,000, now allowing for a 25% discount; this means the owners can expect to pay circa £37,500 for a replacement Generation Two bike.

At face value, this may appear to be a generous offer on the part of TVS Norton; however, it is far from this; in one move, Norton avoids £2.4m in liabilities while generating £2m sales revenues against a bike that have a significant number of unallocated units. From an owners perspective it appears TVS Norton are simply looking to find the most cost effective and commercially beneficial resolution without any regard to the implications to any of the owners.

In closing, I wish to leave you with a question. Suppose a business as sophisticated as TVS Norton can not resolve the Generation One defects and restore these motorcycles to the road. Will people have the required trust to invest circa £50,000 in a second-generation superbike that had its entire first generation removed from the road with un-rectifiable defects?
 
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I wish you well in your endeavours.... That TVS has so publicly trashed the V4 was a bit disingenuous in my opinion, so good luck.
 

BLIGHTYBRIT/SF

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That’s got to be the most stiking first message of a new member ever on here.

Puts our fuelung problems in the shade really, remember Ian Wilson & others saying if they can’t get an old push rod engine right how they going get the V4 soughted
Think a few NOC members will be asking more questions at the dinner in 2 weeks time when Norton’s head honcho is there !
So what’s the REAL value of this 1m on the clock bike at his high end bike dealer atm
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DBF1CDF4-F694-4945-9E28-3B6422A2612D.jpeg
 
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Stephen_Spencer

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Just spent a while thinking about how I would feel had I purchased the V4SS and been left in this situation. Gutted does’nt seem to cut it!

Good luck and I hope you get some level of satisfaction. I think we’re all paying the ‘long game’, whichever modern Norton we bought from your friend and mine SG; may he get what he deserves also.
 
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Norton avoids £2.4m in liabilities
Legally TVS Norton has no liability, that is your starting point, no UK civil action against TVS Norton would make it past the raising of claim stage. Face facts you have no leverage unless you trash TVS Norton.

So you are going to have to find a different approach, rumours are that SG Norton will likely be paying out £1 to the £1 on debt. SG Norton have the liability for the design of your bike, so use the work TVS have done and place a claim for the full cost of bike on SG Norton and then, once you get the payout and scrap or return your heap then buy a TVS V4 or a Ducati/Aprilla V4.
 

BritTwit

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In closing, I wish to leave you with a question. Suppose a business as sophisticated as TVS Norton can not resolve the Generation One defects and restore these motorcycles to the road. Will people have the required trust to invest circa £50,000 in a second-generation superbike that had its entire first generation removed from the road with un-rectifiable defects?
It's all well and good that TS says that the defects have been resolved in the new Gen 2 bike.
However, after knowing what I know about the history of this machine, I would have to see a year or two of problem free production and satisfied owners before plopping down any of my cash on a new V4SS.
 
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Its the same problem that us 961 owners have had.Norton SG had no time to develop and iron out the faults in the bikes that they had to get to market and sell fast for cash flow. The 961 is a beautiful looking bike but needed a lot more testing and time to get it right for market we owners are the 961 test pilots they never made that many, but they will be treasured as owners are slowly ironing out the faults. The V4s were/are so much more complicated and the testing the New Norton Co have done on the Norton SG produced bikes are at the new company's cost as it evaluates its new potential product. They are doing things so much more thoroughly I guess and if the V4 comes to market it will be right. I was struck yesterday as I rode first my 961 Norton with its good looks but never going far from home on it ride and My confident but older Triumph sprint that I happily went way over the speed limit on the motorway how much more I trusted the Triumph. TVS have told V4 owners to apply for a claim against the old company its strikes me as very good advice.Further more if you can afford to pay that much money for a bike you almost certainly know a good lawyer and that's exactly my advice.Listen to TVS Norton claim against the Norton SG Co in liquidation and go find your best lawyer to do it right.
 
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I think it's a little unfair to compare the 961 and V4SS in as much as the fault report commissioned/published by/for TVS has nigh on condemned those bikes to scrap or for ornamental use only. Who would insure one now?
 
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V4 engines were built in house at Norton.
Simon Skinner didn't own a V4SS... and you wouldn't see him on the road with a bike anyhow, as he gave up road riding many years ago. He designs bikes essentially on just the aesthetics, with the various design teams being responsible for making that picture work.
Really hope you guys get your bikes sorted though, they ride lovely!
 

Fast Eddie

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V4 engines were built in house at Norton.
Simon Skinner didn't own a V4SS... and you wouldn't see him on the road with a bike anyhow, as he gave up road riding many years ago. He designs bikes essentially on just the aesthetics, with the various design teams being responsible for making that picture work.
Really hope you guys get your bikes sorted though, they ride lovely!


Hmmm… that provokes an interesting question in my mind:

Q: should a motorcycle designer be a motorcycle rider…?
 
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