TVS can Solihull can't??

BritTwit said:
Very true.
This is why I thought SG going IoM racing was idiotic.
Get your business in order first ( ledger in black ), then find foolish sponsors to pay for your racing program.

Let's not go through the whole "made in the UK" thing again.
We know what companies do today with sourcing, this line of reasoning will never end happily for most of us.
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Even Harley Davidson is not made in the USA. They say assembled in the USA but that isn't even true as they are now making bikes overseas. If its not made there then it shouldn't say so.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Not sure we can compare the output/productivity of a large scale, established, foreign manufacturer of high volume small capacity machines, with a new start-up in the UK.

Disappointing that it’s taken Norton so long to get up and running but probably not so surprising to those more ‘in the know’ than you or I. A lot of water gone under the bridge in the last few years to get to this point, by way of start-up and environment. And if ever a new business needed to take time to get it right before delivering bikes it is Norton, given its abortive more recent past.

Yep they’ve been clear about the EV’s, as it’s the direction all manufacturers will be heading in eventually. I think current and future ICE machines are way more than placeholders though. They will need to make a clear success of their conventional engined models or may not get to a juncture at which they can introduce an EV, IMO.
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No disrespect, but you talk as if TVS is new to the motorcycle and manufacturing business. You defend every step they make and seem to never admit their mistake or flaws. Just my friendly opinion.
 
City Garage said:
What you forgot to point out was that they took over a business that was already manufacturing a motorcycle and that with the TVS touch and the amount of money they poured in they should have been able to turn around the production line within at least a year. I don't care if it was 5 bikes a week they should have been able to do so given the resources available within TVS. TVS is a giant in manufacturing so making excuses for them is needless. They mass produce many products and with all the companies they own getting Norton back running should be child play to them.
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With respect CG, you talk in absolutes and as though your opinions are fact. There would likely have been significant undertakings in many areas to be dealt with. Norton Birmingham/TVS were not in the business of ‘knocking out 5 bikes a week’, but in setting up a thriving automotive marque in a globally competitive environment. Maybe it took time:

- completing business purchase in an environment where the sale/legalities where still under contest
- winding up SG Norton and dealing with legacy issues
- finding a new site for the business
- building a new factory from the ground up
- sourcing and equipping that new facility with high tech equipment
- sourcing professional staff from at home and abroad
- resolving legacy model technical issues
- setting up a quality system whilst establishing and qualifying new suppliers
- planning a model line-up and putting that plan into motion
- ensuring when they did open for business they were ready to do so because heaven knows, there would be enough people intent on crucifying them if they got it wrong
- to complete the above during a global pandemic and where logistical supply lines were severely restricted

Bottom line is we just don’t know why they have taken the time they have. Your speculation on how long it should have taken them could be considered as ‘needless’ to use your words. I offer my opinion (speculation) as to why these delays may have occured, but it’s my opinion only. We do not have the full picture and should probably resist commenting as though we do.

If you would like though, we may tease out some more interesting aspects - if you do know that it should have taken no longer than one year to produce the first bikes, maybe you could tell us why they have failed to meet this timeframe? Incompetence? Poor staffing choices? An intent to mislead? Other unspecified nefarious reason?

I‘m not seeking to defend or justify these delays (nor the company), just to give my opinion as to why they may have occured - as a counter to the all pervasive ‘they just got it all wrong’ commentary. And just maybe, because I‘d like Norton Birmingham to succeed.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
With respect CG, you talk in absolutes and as though your opinions are fact. There would likely have been significant undertakings in many areas to be dealt with. Norton Birmingham/TVS were not in the business of ‘knocking out 5 bikes a week’, but in setting up a thriving automotive marque in a globally competitive environment. Maybe it took time:

- completing business purchase in an environment where the sale/legalities where still under contest
- winding up SG Norton and dealing with legacy issues
- finding a new site for the business
- building a new factory from the ground up
- sourcing and equipping that new facility with high tech equipment
- sourcing professional staff from at home and abroad
- resolving legacy model technical issues
- setting up a quality system whilst establishing and qualifying new suppliers
- planning a model line-up and putting that plan into motion
- ensuring when they did open for business they were ready to do so because heaven knows, there would be enough people intent on crucifying them if they got it wrong
- to complete the above during a global pandemic and where logistical supply lines were severely restricted

Bottom line is we just don’t know why they have taken the time they have. Your speculation on how long it should have taken them could be considered as ‘needless’ to use your words. I offer my opinion (speculation) as to why these delays may have occured, but it’s my opinion only. We do not have the full picture and should probably resist commenting as though we do.

If you would like though, we may tease out some more interesting aspects - if you do know that it should have taken no longer than one year to produce the first bikes, maybe you could tell us why they have failed to meet this timeframe? Incompetence? Poor staffing choices? An intent to mislead? Other unspecified nefarious reason?

I‘m not seeking to defend or justify these delays (nor the company), just to give my opinion as to why they may have occured - as a counter to the all pervasive ‘they just got it all wrong’ commentary. And just maybe, because I‘d like Norton Birmingham to succeed.
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Stephen, I work in manufacturing engineering and management. I’ve worked on numerous greenfield and brownfield launches in many industry sectors in many countries, including India.

The list you make is actually good. And to a layperson it can look kinda scary, complicated, perhaps even impossible !

But in industry, it’s just normal business. That’s what companies do. All the time.

TVS is a large, experienced, cash rich organisation, so to them this should be even more like ‘normal business’.

It’s the way that Nortons progress has had the appearance of a battle… a trench warfare battle in fact… with SO many announcements that failed to deliver and due dates missed etc. that both surprises and disappoints me.

Seriously, and without wishing to belittle the work involved (becasue I know that very well) this stuff ain’t rocket science.
 
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Fast Eddie said:
Stephen, I work in manufacturing engineering and management. I’ve worked on numerous greenfield and brownfield launches in many industry sectors in ma y countries, including India.

The list you make is actually good. And to a layperson it can look kinda scary, complicated, etc.

But in industry, it’s just normal business. That’s what companies do. All the time.

TVS is a large, experienced, cash rich organisation, so to them this should be even more like ‘normal business’.

It’s the way that Nortons progress has had the appearance of a battle… a trench warfare battle in fact… with SO many announcements that failed to deliver and due dates missed etc. that both surprises and disappoints me.

Seriously, and without wishing to belittle the work involved (becasue I know that very well) this stuff ain’t rocket science.
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Understand what you are saying FE and fully recognise the experience that you have that I do not. But, if it is the case that Norton Birmingham has been dragging its heals/failing, then why? There is lots of commentary (fair or unfair, accurate or not) on their performance but nobody has made any attempt to identify the reasons for any failures. If we don't know why they are (supposedly) failing, then how do we know that they have?

I guess it’s also fair to say that none of us really know:

- constraints/conditions TVS may have placed on Donnington Norton
- what legal/contractual impediments were in their way - remember the Norton employee on the show stand that said contractually, there was to be no productivity before ‘x‘ date? Engine rights sold to China etc.
- the real impact of the pandemic on logistics etc.

I know that we all want Norton to succeed (I think) - what I find difficult to digest is the almost obsessive criticism that has persisted right up until Norton has started to deliver motorcycles. That’s right - Norton Motorcycles (following a near death SG experience) is now delivering motorcycles to the British public, from Birmingham, UK!!!! The history itself is enough to spark interest in those that have any connection. My Grandad, dad and I rode/ride Nortons. Is it fair to say that the connection may not be as strong for others.

If I were to read the negative comments from this site ranging from - they had no intention of ever building any bikes - to - who’s gonna buy them anyway; I may never have bought one and would have missed out on the best motorcycling experience of my 40+ years of riding.

Edit - grandad rode multiple British bikes, can’t confirm the Norton connection.
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
If we don't know why they are (supposedly) failing, then how do we know that they have?
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A lot of points semi made there Stephen, not sure what your overriding point was ?

I‘ll pick on this one above.

How do we know they have failed… because of what they told us!

I certainly can’t be arsed to research it properly, but there is a rather long list of failed, and often contradictory, announcements and due dates. Both regarding motorcycles and service parts supply.
 
Fast Eddie said:
A lot of points semi made there Stephen, not sure what your overriding point was ?

I‘ll pick on this one above.

How do we know they have failed… because of what they told us!

I certainly can’t be arsed to research it properly, but there is a rather long list of failed, and often contradictory, announcements and due dates. Both regarding motorcycles and service parts supply.
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Not sure that my points were completely ambiguos FE - to amplify:

- let’s be clear in our narrative if we’re stating that Norton has failed to meet expectations
- let’s not pretend that we know the intimate details of why production was delayed - we don’t
- just maybe the constant criticism is unwarranted and unhelpful
- maybe said negativity is turning people away from (this forum and) the marque
- maybe we could acknowledhge that one of histories most famous motorcycle manufacturers is delivering bikes again - rather than criticise the manner in which they’ve achieved it.
 
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We know they have the Commando 961 and the V4.
Sure, they claim they’ve made improvements to all of the said bikes.

But let’s be honest here, they didn’t design them. They came into and purchased a line up of bikes that were already designed and being built.

All existing and newly built companies improve on quality and design. Either for performance, quality, cost or all the above.

Nobody is taking away the fact that TVS build a new factory from the ground up and hired new staff, working with new or existing suppliers etc.

What they very badly suck at is releasing news or information to could be customers. And sharing information in this day and age.

At this rate, they’ll never make their goal of 8000 bikes a year. And if that were even true, how exclusive would they actually be? Imagine there being 2600 Commandos, 2600 V4 and 2600 Cafe V4. Or 6000 commandos and 1000 of each V4 bikes.
How special is that new 961 now?
They only sell TVS Nortons in the UK.
 
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'one of histories most famous motorcycle manufacturers is delivering bikes again'

Sorry, not quite correct, perhaps??

'The latest company to trade as 'Norton Motorcycles', maybe....

Apologies for opening THAT can of worms.....
 
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Voodooo said:
We know they have the Commando 961 and the V4.
Sure, they claim they’ve made improvements to all of the said bikes.

But let’s be honest here, they didn’t design them. They came into and purchased a line up of bikes that were already designed and being built.

All existing and newly built companies improve on quality and design. Either for performance, quality, cost or all the above.

Nobody is taking away the fact that TVS build a new factory from the ground up and hired new staff, working with new or existing suppliers etc.

What they very badly suck at is releasing news or information to could be customers. And sharing information in this day and age.

At this rate, they’ll never make their goal of 8000 bikes a year. And if that were even true, how exclusive would they actually be? Imagine there being 2600 Commandos, 2600 V4 and 2600 Cafe V4. Or 6000 commandos and 1000 of each V4 bikes.
How special is that new 961 now?
They only sell TVS Nortons in the UK.
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Thanks V2D3, for demonstrating virtually everything I’ve detailed above (and adding a little more ridiculous hyperbole for good measure) in one post! You are a legend! No need for any more input from me.

Now, time for me to get far away from this discussion before I’m brainwashed into selling my Norton and buying a Honda!
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Not sure that my points were completely ambiguos FE - to amplify:

- let’s be clear in our narrative if we’re stating that Norton has failed to meet expectations
- let’s not pretend that we know the intimate details of why production was delayed - we don’t
- just maybe the constant criticism is unwarranted and unhelpful
- maybe said negativity is turning people away from (this forum and) the marque
- maybe we could acknowledhge that one of histories most famous motorcycle manufacturers is delivering bikes again - rather than criticise the manner in which they’ve achieved it.
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There are always more than one way of looking at a situation Stephen, thankfully!

And to your point about the reason for the delays and failures, you are of course correct, we don’t know why.

But in the cold, hard world of markets, and customers, that actually does not matter very much at all. Customers want products.

All Norton have to do in order to drum up positivity is… sell good motorcycles to satisfied customers.

Let’s hope we start to see just that. Soon.
 
It was mentioned by Mahindra top brass that BSA 650 Goldstar took 10 years to bring to market.
Triumph had 50 engineers working full time for five years to go from ac 865 to watercooled 900/1200. Even at that they had a few small glitches.
Is designing a new bike all that much more difficult than re-engineering an existing bike that has a multitude of problems ?

In housing it's much easier to start anew rather than fix someone else's f**kups.



Glen
 
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Here in NYC there is a Suzuki dealer too who carries REs and scooters.
The REs are a good percentage of is business.
Meteor 350 is very popular with young Brooklyn Hipsters.
 
It's kinda fun watching the 350 Meteor riders test the big 650 Interceptor. They are always blown away by the acceleration of the 45 bhp Interceptor.
It's much like the 60s when we would get off of an 8hp Honda 90 and onto a 30 hp Honda 305. The 305 felt like such a powerful machine!
In many ways this progession from a light very low powered bike to a slightly heavier slightly more powerful machine makes a lot more sense than starting with a 150 mile per hour Triumph 675 or equivalent.

Glen
 
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