Tuning a different way.

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IMO Bob is probably riding the balls of his bike whereas a couple of other riders are not quite coming out of the corners as fast, that alone can give you an extra 10mph down the straight, if the engines were equal.
The Clatworthy bikes are amazing machines.
For example, on weight reduction, Geoff will disassemble the standard AMC box, already a lightweight unit, and carefully trim a few grams here and there to lighten the box a full kg.
He knows how to do it and still leave the box strong enough for racing with a 50 bhp + Es2.
I wouldn't dare lighten an AMC box, I just don't have the necessary knowledge and experience.

Glen
 
I think that most of us street riders should be tuning for reliability and long engine life.
If you buy a modern bike, you usually get that. But some people still tune them. To me, that is what is wrong with modern bikes. If you make them go faster, they become far too fast. If you tune and old Commando. they become fast enough to be fun without creating a disaster.
My 850 motor runs on methanol - but that does not really do much. Rebalancing the crank allows me to rev the motor higher and the 2 into 1 exhaust makes the bike more rideable. Apart from that there is almost nothing done to the motor. A close ratio gearbox will make any Commando faster. The main thing you need is a reliable and effective front brake.
The way an unaltered Commando is, it is usually quite quick, and even when tuned they are usually reliable.
I never do silly things such as raising compression ratio or doing anything else which might cause valves to tangle.
 
The Clatworthy bikes are amazing machines.
For example, on weight reduction, Geoff will disassemble the standard AMC box, already a lightweight unit, and carefully trim a few grams here and there to lighten the box a full kg.
He knows how to do it and still leave the box strong enough for racing with a 50 bhp + Es2.
I wouldn't dare lighten an AMC box, I just don't have the necessary knowledge and experience.

Glen
When I bought my 6 speed TTI box, I could have had magnesium instead of aluminium cases. My bike would probably have become 20 MPH faster in my imagination.
My motor has cast iron instead of aluminium barrels, but I don't notice the difference.
 
I stuck with the five speed ally shell despite thinking it would be pretty cool to have a six speed in the mag case.
Even I can resist being REALLY silly.
 
Geoff takes that weight reduction approach to everything on the bike. The end result is an ES2 (4) that is far lighter than a Manx Norton.
That definitely helps the Es4 get by the Manxes and G50s.
 
In the 1960s and 70s in Australia, A grade riders such as Bob were almost as good as international riders. He does not need to ride the balls off a bike to be fast. If you watch the practice sessions, you do need to know who the riders are to pick him out. Bob is the one who looks as though he means business. With his tuning method and mine we end up at the same point by coming from different directions. I don't know whether you can get the jetting correct at all throttle openings by using an oxygen probe. I always set the timing first then jet to it. But I think, if you set the timing, jet to it, then re-adjust the timing on the dyno, then check the jetting again - might be good.
I have always wondered about arbitrary timing settings. Even if you have a programmed advance curve, you probably need to optimise the static timing to suit the fuel..
 
I stuck with the five speed ally shell despite thinking it would be pretty cool to have a six speed in the mag case.
Even I can resist being REALLY silly.
Four speeds close ratio is all you need to make a Commando fast, but first gear is usually too high for a clutchn start. 3 speeds close and high with a normal commando first gear was probably all I needed, but I got the hump. What I race against have been developed into 4 cylinder superbikes. I got frustrated - the bit I lost at the start of two races was impossible to regain. The one time I got brave and revved the tits off the motor on the start line, I got past them at turn 2 and ended up 100 metres ahead of the three leaders. The clip for the fuel line is right up under the tank where it cannot be seen. Both my helper and I both forgot it. The lower two speed in the 6 speed box are used to launch the bike away from the start. One low gear and four high and close is enough. The gap between first and second is irrelevant, once you are moving. You never go back to first during a race.
 
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...and of course, I am on the street, you at the track and never the twain shall meet.
I am geared high for the dual carriage but the I live in hilly country so the extra gear
works out for me. It would be better to have a 920 though.
 
I was talking with Bob a while back about a few of us going to a practice day at Winton. It he brought that ES2 along, I would not be surprised if he hosed-off my Seely 850 around parts of Winton Raceway. I raced against guys like him years ago when I rode in the Harvie Wiltshire Memorial Race. It was for 500cc capacity machines. When I say 'raced' - I was on the start line with them. The rest was a joke. These days, the kids race very well, but I know what it used to be like when Phillis, Horsman, Toombs, Angel, Rumble and Pound were about. One of my mates, not so long ago, thought he could ride motorcycle. He lined up in his first race, looked around at the old snoozers and though he was in with a chance. He found out that he did not know how to ride a motorcycle. Most of the guys in his race would have lost sight of the good guys in the 1960s.
I really like watching Bob race. He demonstrates what could be.
 
Of course it would !
I would never increase capacity to get more go. My motor is 2mm oversize, so it is probably almost 900cc. I think that if it was a 750, I could probably make it go faster. Jim's long rods and light pistons look very good to me. With a 920cc engine, you probably get more torque which would make the bike a better ride on public roads. But if it came to a speed contest, there are different effects when you have light engine internals.
 
I would never increase capacity to get more go. My motor is 2mm oversize, so it is probably almost 900cc. I think that if it was a 750, I could probably make it go faster. Jim's long rods and light pistons look very good to me. With a 920cc engine, you probably get more torque which would make the bike a better ride on public roads. But if it came to a speed contest, there are different effects when you have light engine internals.
What about if you have both, have you ever thought about that?

… 920 pistons that are lighter than stock 750 pistons? With a crank 7lbs lighter? Rotating primary parts that are 10lbs lighter? Etc.

I know your stock engine is the fastest thing on two wheels, ever. Sadly the rest of us have to try other ways….

BTW I think your engine is approx 870.
 
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Al, if you compare Gary Thwaites times on the Dave Watson 750 & 960 Seeley Commandos you would see that his times were quicker with the big engine. Track proof.
 
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It is true that increased displacement is NOT a substitute for good tuning. Often (perhaps usually) a well tuned smaller engine will beat a poorly tuned bigger one.

But… as I see it ‘real’ tuning is about improving the BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure). Which is “a quantity relating to the operation of a reciprocating engine and is a measure of an engine's capacity to do work that is independent of engine displacement”.

It therefore stands to reason that if two engines of different displacement AND equal BMEP are compared, it is physically impossible for the bigger engine to not produce a higher output, and therefore greater performance potential.

At least that’s the theory. As Chris pointed out, Gary conducted a practical experiment, with the same results !
 
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Qute correct, of course and the physics being the old saying, "There is no substitute for cubic inches."
 
Qute correct, of course and the physics being the old saying, "There is no substitute for cubic inches."
There is another old saying 'torque wins races'. The gear box is a torque multiplier. On a short tight circuit, torque is more beneficial than on a big circuit with wide sweeping bends. My 500cc short stroke Triumph was far quicker than my Seeley 850 around the tight bits of Winton, if I lowered the overall gearing - but too slow at the ends of the straights. I usually ran higher gearing so I did not end up running into the back of guys at the ends of the straights. The Seeley 850 is much faster in sum total and much safer. One of my mates said 'if you have a torquey motor, you do not need a close ratio gearbox'. I tried racing with the normal Commando gearbox ratios - the bike was too slow everywhere.
That Triton was built by Allan Greening in the mid1950s. He raced it at Bathurst in about 1957. By the time it reached the end of conrod straight, it was really going and he could not stop it. The escape road goes to the right and the corner goes to the left at the same angle. He chose to try to go around, and got around. He crashed the bike at the top of the mountain, breaking an arm and a leg. I raced the bike at Phillip Island and crashed it 4 times in one day - once at 90 MPH. When it was going, it was really great. It was all top end and it accelerated forever, if you had enough time.
Alan Greening did not race again until the mid 70s. A couple of times I gave him the Seeley 850 to ride in races. I had never seen him so happy.
If I race these days, the bikes I race against are methanol-fuelled 1100cc CB750 Hondas. My Seeley 850 is much better.
 
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