Triumph Bobber / Speed Twin.

Voodooo said:

The Thruxton RS would be the version I’d get if I were wanting a Thruxton. More hp. Less weight. Better components. But I already have a Commando SF and a Dominator Naked. I realize the 961 doesn’t have the power of the Thruxton, But I kinda want a two up bike, even though some of what I like are not 2 up and the few that I like that are 2 up wouldn’t be comfortable for a passenger.
My mind is scattering all over.......
Speed Twin
Bobber TFC
Ducati Streetfighter
Ducati Monster 1200
MV Agusta Superveloce 800
MV Agusta Brutale 1000
Aprilia Tuono 1100 V4 Factory

Click to expand...

If buying today I'd look at the RS too.
It does have few more hp from revving 500 rpm higher. In spite of the hype about different components, it looks to have the same suspension and brakes as the R, which is fine, they are good items.
Not crazy about the colour so I won't need to trade.
Cat delete and Tec cam gives the old version 110 bhp, but then I can't fully use the stock power most of the time. The TC light flashes quite often.
It's the old game of the slight rearrangement to create early obsolescence and desirability. Rapide and Black Shadow deja vu. It often works!

Glen

The R III for a bloke whos to big for a ' super sports ' , and He'd hang onto it , no trouble. As he blasted past .

Think thisistheone , where he gives it the odd squirt , past a hyawanka or whatever .



Heres a pansey little ' ralley ' type ' tourquey ' Header , off of a V 8 Mopar . For whimps .


To adapt design for R 3 .

" Anthony – Is it stock? Factory HP was probably around 250…which means a couple of 2″ pipes should cover it. Now if you start doing mods and crank it up over 300hp, a set of 2.25″ pipes will work. " Still. Of relehpants .


These are just little nancey boy steet ( or Pasture ) headers for a V-10 PICKUP TRUCK .
As the R IIIs cylinders'r said to match . NASCAR Types'd be bigger longer & meaner .
If'n ya wanna pass Rossi whileyour chewing a sandwich .

Setting up Equal Length ( Volume ! ) Pipes to run forward then togeter & maybe along under one side ( theres only three)
or maybe two one side , one T'other . ( Fwd Cyl down left ? ) Together in a non retrictive collector , and no restrictive bends . Should see it pick up a bit in the top half of the powerband . say past 4.000 .
Might need a hump in the seat rear.



Actually , Set Up Something like that , running under . Would work a treat .
Use Moto X ' spring " retainers at the head . & a Pin - Grommet - ' C ' pin reatainer .
So 10 seconds to drop - for maintanace .

Picture theres a classic for the open free no constriction set up .
Any Dyno Footage you see pipes lighter at constrictions . Lower Temp. Less boggie . asin its slowed down .
And we cant have that. Can we .

Wonder howitdsound , unbaffled . like that . Cumon ya wooses .

worntorn said:

If buying today I'd look at the RS too.
It does have few more hp from revving 500 rpm higher. In spite of the hype about different components, it looks to have the same suspension and brakes as the R, which is fine, they are good items.
Not crazy about the colour so I won't need to trade.
Cat delete and Tec cam gives the old version 110 bhp, but then I can't fully use the stock power most of the time. The TC light flashes quite often.
It's the old game of the slight rearrangement to create early obsolescence and desirability. Rapide and Black Shadow deja vu. It often works!

Glen

Click to expand...

The RS Thruxton is also available in black.

Scott, I’d suggest you put serious thought into the importance of pillion carrying ability. If that’s a proper consideration, it crosses a lot of those bikes off of your list!

I keep extolling the virtues of the 1200S... but I wouldn’t force that hideous token gesture pillion set up on anyone I wanted to carry.

I think even the Bobber is out as anything other than a postage stamp sized pad would kinda destroy the whole point of it.

There you go... problem solved... Speed Twin it is...!

Fast Eddie said:

But, if I were looking for something of that genre I’d be looking at these boys (although they’re more $ than the Triumph): http://www.zero-eng.com/

Click to expand...

Nigel - are they just hotted up and/or customised Harleys?

Styling looks like a Brough rooted a Harley! (not pretty to watch or (IMHO) pretty result!)

robs ss said:

Nigel - are they just hotted up and/or customised Harleys?

Click to expand...

I think they might take offence at that!

The cheaper ones use new Evo engines with I assume are HD supplied. But everything else is none HD.

The cooler ones use updated bored n stroked S&S Shovel head replica lumps.

Not everyone’s cup of tea of course, but I’d definitely have one in the stable if space and funds were adequate !

alwaysal said:

The Speed Twin seemed promising to me because of its relatively light weight and cast wheels (although I agree with comments about the Thruxton being a better looking bike) - and also because of its rave reviews. When I sat on the Speed Twin in the showroom it just didn't seem to gel with me though. It felt quite dinky and I was really surprised at just how high up the footpegs are and how hard the seat felt. Didn't feel to me like it would be comfortable going any distance, but I may be wrong.
Like fasteddie I also have this thing about Triumph shouting about being British and then making them in Thailand. If they made the perfect bike (for me at any rate) I could just be tempted though!

Click to expand...

I feel that British design and styling combined with Asian quality control during assembly is the best of both worlds.
There have been reliable bikes coming out of Asia for many decades now, but the styling is generally uninspiring.
The Brits have always been great at motorcycle styling and also design.
Quality control in the UK hasn't always been the best.
The owner of Triumph admitted this in a roundabout way. Stuart Garner also said as much in that he started off trying to use UK only components and services then soon realized that was a mistake.

Country of origin for a new bike doesn't matter a whole lot to me . It's much more important that the device works properly and keeps doing so for a long time. A new bike should look good plus run almost forever without issue.
The 961 is Brit design , with Brit assembly. Would it have all of these reliability problems if it was assembled in Asia?

Just my view and I understand your POV as well, so please don't take offence.

Glen

Fast Eddie said:

Scott, I’d suggest you put serious thought into the importance of pillion carrying ability. If that’s a proper consideration, it crosses a lot of those bikes off of your list!

I keep extolling the virtues of the 1200S... but I wouldn’t force that hideous token gesture pillion set up on anyone I wanted to carry.

I think even the Bobber is out as anything other than a postage stamp sized pad would kinda destroy the whole point of it.

There you go... problem solved... Speed Twin it is...!

Click to expand...

Exactly
That’s why I asked about the speed twin on my first post at the start of this thread.
And I’d never put anyone on a fender mounted bobber seat. Leaning towards the speed twin.

worntorn said:

I feel that British design and styling combined with Asian quality control during assembly is the best of both worlds.
There have been reliable bikes coming out of Asia for many decades now, but the styling is generally uninspiring.
The Brits have always been great at motorcycle styling and also design.
Quality control in the UK hasn't always been the best.
The owner of Triumph admitted this in a roundabout way. Stuart Garner also said as much in that he started off trying to use UK only components and services then soon realized that was a mistake.

Country of origin for a new bike doesn't matter a whole lot to me . It's much more important that the device works properly and keeps doing so for a long time. A new bike should look good plus run almost forever without issue.
The 961 is Brit design , with Brit assembly. Would it have all of these reliability problems if it was assembled in Asia?

Just my view and I understand your POV as well, so please don't take offence.

Glen

Click to expand...

The 961 is actually a US design - Dreer's, but draws heavily on the classic Britbike concept.
But I don't disagree that manufacturing and assembly in Asia is a good idea.

The physical work required for manufacturing & assemble doesn't suit westerners well.
Many of us are lazy due to our western lifestyles, and as a result perform the work poorly, resulting in quality control issues.

Asian's by comparison see their manufacturing job as providing them with wealth and social status.
For instance, in Japan, workers wear company uniforms and perform calisthenic warmup exercises before work.
They see themselves as warriors for the factory.
The harder they work, the more profitable the company will be, and the more social status their job will bring.

I considered referring to the 961 as a US design then recalled Garner stating that every part of the bike was redesigned in the UK before production began. So I think the 961 is a UK design with Dreer's great styling.

Re your comments on the difference in work ethics in different cultures- John Bloor said much the same. He said the jobs in his Asian Triumph Factories are prized jobs and the workers do not want to lose them. They are eager to get instructions and then follow them to the letter.
I guess in the UK things are different, although Bloor was smart to avoid discussion of his UK operations
.
I know as a Manager on Construction crews here in Canada, I would have been thrilled to have workers with the " eager to follow instructions" attitude.
More common was " I'm not doing this your way because I'm smarter than you , dumbass!"


Glen

worntorn said:

I considered referring to the 961 as a US design then recalled Garner stating that every part of the bike was redesigned in the UK before production began. So I think the 961 is a UK design with Dreer's great styling.


Glen

Click to expand...

The 961 wouldn’t look like it does if it wasn’t for Dreers work.

Yes, Dreer styling only. Designing parts that work or fail and choice of components all done by others in the UK.

Glen

worntorn said:

Yes, Dreer styling only. Designing parts that work or fail and choice of components all done by others in the UK.

Glen

Click to expand...

Well, Deere also designed the architecture of the 961 engine. It was his in frame design that allows assembly and disassembly of the engine while still being bolted to the frame.
You can remove the cranks rotating assembly while the engine cases are still in the bikes frame. That’s a Deere design. Not Norton.

worntorn said:

Yes, Dreer styling only. Designing parts that work or fail and choice of components all done by others in the UK.

Glen

Click to expand...

Glen,

Much has been made of SG's comment that there are no common components between the Dreer prototypes and the production 961's.
The basic components are the same functionally.
Yes SG did pay a UK firm to redesign the motors to make them easier, and less expensive to assemble, and to "upgrade" to EFI.

But the basic engineering in the motors is the same.
I believe that if Dreer's company had survived in the US and produced Commandos for sale, we (owners) would have experienced the same issues and failures that the UK Norton factory has seen.
This is because the basic engineering is not to the standard that we see from established motorcycle companies.

The 961 would have been a revelation, if this were 1969.

worntorn said:

I considered referring to the 961 as a US design then recalled Garner stating that every part of the bike was redesigned in the UK before production began. So I think the 961 is a UK design with Dreer's great styling.

Re your comments on the difference in work ethics in different cultures- John Bloor said much the same. He said the jobs in his Asian Triumph Factories are prized jobs and the workers do not want to lose them. They are eager to get instructions and then follow them to the letter.
I guess in the UK things are different, although Bloor was smart to avoid discussion of his UK operations
.
I know as a Manager on Construction crews here in Canada, I would have been thrilled to have workers with the " eager to follow instructions" attitude.
More common was " I'm not doing this your way because I'm smarter than you , dumbass!"


Glen

Click to expand...

I guess it is the difference between working to live and living to work.
That said, those who have genuine pride in their work can achieve a good work - life balance, just look at Brent’s work!

worntorn said:

I feel that British design and styling combined with Asian quality control during assembly is the best of both worlds.
There have been reliable bikes coming out of Asia for many decades now, but the styling is generally uninspiring.
The Brits have always been great at motorcycle styling and also design.
Quality control in the UK hasn't always been the best.
The owner of Triumph admitted this in a roundabout way. Stuart Garner also said as much in that he started off trying to use UK only components and services then soon realized that was a mistake.

Country of origin for a new bike doesn't matter a whole lot to me . It's much more important that the device works properly and keeps doing so for a long time. A new bike should look good plus run almost forever without issue.
The 961 is Brit design , with Brit assembly. Would it have all of these reliability problems if it was assembled in Asia?

Just my view and I understand your POV as well, so please don't take offence.

Glen

Click to expand...

No offence taken Glen. I suppose I just feel better when I buy British, it's worth paying extra to me (if I can afford it). That's not to say I buy British exclusively - I've had loads of Hondas and they've been great. I do feel though that what is often put down as bad workmanship is more to do with penny pinching by the manufacturer. I'm quite willing to buy a machine of good quality from anywhere - (except China, I try hard to buy as little as possible from China but that's more to do with their treatment of animals rather than quality issues! - last year I spent two days trying to find a non-Chinese electric kettle, very hard - even a £120 Smeg is made in China - but I'm glad to say patience paid off!)
In 1992 I bought one of the first Hinckley Tridents which I kept for eleven years and wish I still had. It was a brilliant bike at an affordable price, fit and finish were flawless proving that superlative quality can be produced here. A huge credit to the British workers, I feel that transferring production abroad was a kick in the teeth to them.
In 2008 I bought a new Bonnie Scrambler which I believe to have been made in England - and then was shocked to find chrome rims and spokes starting to corrode within weeks. I found that Triumph had changed suppliers of the wheels from a Birmingham company to Union Autoparts (Thailand). All of the problems on this bike (corrosion, faulty electric components, cheap suspension etc.) are down to foreign made parts. I still have the bike because I love it's style and as I say, I believe it to have been made in England (not sure exactly how much of it though!). I've been dithering for years now as to whether I want to spend thousands making it the bike it should have been in the first place - or replace it with something else. I've been looking at the 961, hence my interest in this forum.
After getting nowhere complaining to Triumph and having read that John Bloor was passionate about bikes and took a keen interest in his products, I decided to write to him personally - guess what, a snotty reply from customer services but nothing from him!
Having said all this I think that the quality of components can be just as good wherever they are made - if they are inferior it's more to do with specifications set by the parent company. The chrome is thin because that's what is specified, the suspension is rubbish because the manufacturer pays peanuts for it.

Glad this conversation got back to Norton Motorcyles (Modern)


(ish)

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread; I guess we haven't made Voodoo's selection any easier.

I do not believe, for one moment, that Triumph moved production to Thailand for quality reasons!

Surely no-one does...?

It was cost driven, pure and simple.

I’m quite sure that Thai workers are good. But Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes Benz Formula 1, and even Triumph themselves (to name but a few) have all proven that the British worker is very able... provided he/she has the right management in place.


Triumph is a business, and businesses exist to make profits, and I’m no socialist. But I have to question really how much difference it made to shift most production to Thailand and if really it was worth doing it.

It’s not an easy question to get to the bottom of. I’ve worked for many big automotive OEMs, who really should know better, who have closed down factories to build components abroad and I can tell you that the “piece price” talked about by accountants is often very different to the “total cost”. I’ve seen many negative projects ‘made positive’ by creative accounting rather than lose face.

Closing, building, moving factories is a very expensive exercise.

But... it does happen, and the world is a smaller place than ever, global market place etc. As the Triumph guy at the NEC show explained to me “being British just isn’t important these days”.

And therein lies the rub that’s at the root of my gripe with Triumph: if being British is not important then fine, I get it, build in Thailand and drop the Union flags that are in every brochure, dealer, show-stand, etc. But if being British is important... then build in Britain.

cliffa said:

Glad this conversation got back to Norton Motorcyles (Modern)


(ish)

Click to expand...

Most people here have multiple machines with an interest certainly in Norton but anything with two wheels and an engine. The willingness to discuss anything bike related is what I love about this forum. (Unlike some stuck-up sites I could name).