TriSpark, Boyer, Pazon, Sparx, Wassell
- Thread starter p400
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Did you actually confirm the TriSpark failed? Or did you just ditch it and try something else?
p400
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My TriSpark does not appear to have failed, only my troubleshooting failed.
my TriSpark seems fine.
I am looking at getting ZeroK plug caps, no resistance......and installing BPR8ES NGK plugs, which list to have 5K each.
I see some correct appearing Norton P11 Champion spark plug caps on ebay , Zero K, which I am sure would impress about 5 people.
My spare pair of 6V Lucas coils arrived today from Bonneville Shop. I guess they will go into my inventory.
p400
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With a one kick start, I ran my Norton P11 about 40 miles to a meeting. Let it sit 3 hrs. 2 kicks to start (15 people watching) and 40 miles home.
So my issues must have fuel contaminates or particles(rust), loose wires, bad connections, 5K plug caps vs 10K, incorrect float levels, or something else?
I thought my problem was bad ignition since the plugs were black sooted....and the issue came on after several 100 mile outings with no issues.
And the fact I could find no small particle issues anywhere.
So my original TriSpark is still in service and working fine. I will recommend 5K caps however. Maybe 5K resistor plugs and no res caps.
I did receive my new "CHAMPION" caps as pictured above.
So my issues must have fuel contaminates or particles(rust), loose wires, bad connections, 5K plug caps vs 10K, incorrect float levels, or something else?
I thought my problem was bad ignition since the plugs were black sooted....and the issue came on after several 100 mile outings with no issues.
And the fact I could find no small particle issues anywhere.
So my original TriSpark is still in service and working fine. I will recommend 5K caps however. Maybe 5K resistor plugs and no res caps.
I did receive my new "CHAMPION" caps as pictured above.
jerrykap
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The old adage once again proves to be true. Half of your ignition issues are the fault of your fuel system, and vice versa. Recently on mine I discovered that I installed the wrong length needles (too short) with the bike starting and running overly rich. Now corrected but still need to get the clip in the best possible position. Tuning these bikes is never ending.
Resistor cap I believe...
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When I installed EI in the P11, there weren't any options for magneto replacement housings, and/or EI units that go into the magneto replacement housings. Boyer for the Commando was about it. I'd already installed a Commando 2S cam in the P11 cases, and was running points in the timing case and 12V coils. Also running the motor battery less using a M.A.P. Mity Maxx. Installing the 2S cam is a sin in a P11, and one I regret now, but not so much then. To further compound my sins, I drilled a hole in the Primary case and painted a mark on the stator that lines up with the big mark on the alternator rotor when the crank is a 32 degrees BTDC. Doing this allowed me to time the ignition with a timing light without taking the primary cover off. I removed the points ignition and installed a Boyer MkIII. It was a real PITA to start the motor running battery less with the MkIII Boyer. So I put a small 12V 2.5amp battery behind the battery cover in a little custom tray to make starting the Boyer easier. I'd show a picture of where the battery is, but I still need to clean up the wiring. It looks like a crazy person did it. Could be one of those if the shoe fits deals.
In this odd ball scenario, when the crank is at TDC the nice big easy to see mark on the rotor is out of view in the window, and a small mark on the rotor lines up with that mark on the stator.
I don't have a tach on the P11, but I was able to hit full advance at what I felt was a reasonable RPM. Probably a little too much advance too soon, but the motor sure liked it. I've actually backed off on the timing to around 29-30 degrees all in. Idle is a little smoother. It sounded like I had a big cam where I had it set previously.
I ran the EI with 12V coils for 6900 miles before parking the P11 in the early 90's. This year when I pulled it back out of the corner of the garage, I installed a small dual output epoxy coil (e-coil). Spark while kick starting isn't as bright with the e-coil, but it never skips a beat.
I could put any EI product in there I want to take the time to install, but will be installing a Boyer MkIV as soon as it gets here. I'd probably get the Old Brits gizmo before I bought a TriSpark. But that is because I want to make America great again. Kidding, Old Brits is just down the road from me. I do like the price point of the Vape/Wassell, and probably would have gotten one from EuroTrash, if I didn't have a $80 credit with the vendor I bought the Boyer from. He had Pazon too, but I don't need to start over doing a simple Boyer black box swap.
The timing hole hack.
I use a BMW R1100GS rubber timing hole plug to seal it up.
I need to locate a bolt to replace that timed breather elbow. My 2S cam is a solid piece without the breather feature. The corrugated wire sheath is getting moved out of sight under the tank when I do the Boyer black box swap. As you can see by that flat spot on the peg rubber, I used to scrape the pegs a little riding the ole P11. Not that hard to do with pegs that low though.
In this odd ball scenario, when the crank is at TDC the nice big easy to see mark on the rotor is out of view in the window, and a small mark on the rotor lines up with that mark on the stator.
I don't have a tach on the P11, but I was able to hit full advance at what I felt was a reasonable RPM. Probably a little too much advance too soon, but the motor sure liked it. I've actually backed off on the timing to around 29-30 degrees all in. Idle is a little smoother. It sounded like I had a big cam where I had it set previously.
I ran the EI with 12V coils for 6900 miles before parking the P11 in the early 90's. This year when I pulled it back out of the corner of the garage, I installed a small dual output epoxy coil (e-coil). Spark while kick starting isn't as bright with the e-coil, but it never skips a beat.
I could put any EI product in there I want to take the time to install, but will be installing a Boyer MkIV as soon as it gets here. I'd probably get the Old Brits gizmo before I bought a TriSpark. But that is because I want to make America great again. Kidding, Old Brits is just down the road from me. I do like the price point of the Vape/Wassell, and probably would have gotten one from EuroTrash, if I didn't have a $80 credit with the vendor I bought the Boyer from. He had Pazon too, but I don't need to start over doing a simple Boyer black box swap.
The timing hole hack.
I use a BMW R1100GS rubber timing hole plug to seal it up.
I need to locate a bolt to replace that timed breather elbow. My 2S cam is a solid piece without the breather feature. The corrugated wire sheath is getting moved out of sight under the tank when I do the Boyer black box swap. As you can see by that flat spot on the peg rubber, I used to scrape the pegs a little riding the ole P11. Not that hard to do with pegs that low though.
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A -5 o-ring boss hydraulic plug makes a good block-off for the timed breather elbow port. They are available in stainless steel as well. Thread is 1/2”-20 UNF.
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Started it today after swapping the Boyer MkIII to MkIV black boxes yesterday. Could be the cold start kickback is less of an issue. It did not kick back on a cold start like it often does. The motor doesn't idle any better. Probably because there wasn't anything wrong with how it idled previously. I didn't take it for a ride. Too much of a wuss to ride in anything but nice weather. The motor sounds the same blipping it at higher revs no load, so it'll probably run the same as it did with the MkIII box.
The stator plate that came in the Boyer MkIV kit I got is visually at least twice the thickness of the MkIII stator plate I have. That is a welcome improvement. I did not measure the thickness difference, but it's a better piece of board. The MkIII stator board always seemed too thin and flimsy to me. The MkIV box is working as it should with the MkIII rotor and stator, so not much else to say about it. I've probably already said too much.
Temporary redneck R&R of the breather elbow with a 1/2-20 automotive oil pan drain plug with hard plastic washer behind it. I cut the length of the drain plug down to about .75 of an inch to prevent it from hitting the end of the camshaft. Moved the wires in the plastic sheath as well. Looks a little less cluttered. Thanks to Derek for getting me off my butt to check those breather elbow threads and do something about it.
The stator plate that came in the Boyer MkIV kit I got is visually at least twice the thickness of the MkIII stator plate I have. That is a welcome improvement. I did not measure the thickness difference, but it's a better piece of board. The MkIII stator board always seemed too thin and flimsy to me. The MkIV box is working as it should with the MkIII rotor and stator, so not much else to say about it. I've probably already said too much.
Temporary redneck R&R of the breather elbow with a 1/2-20 automotive oil pan drain plug with hard plastic washer behind it. I cut the length of the drain plug down to about .75 of an inch to prevent it from hitting the end of the camshaft. Moved the wires in the plastic sheath as well. Looks a little less cluttered. Thanks to Derek for getting me off my butt to check those breather elbow threads and do something about it.
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- May 28, 2003
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Wondering what series is your engine and how deep you went on your rebuild?
(I have around 30 cams 1949-1975 scrolled and plain journal.) Obviously not all...
Cam end crankcase breather- so engine is thick cam bush-so slotted case breather disc- did you remove it? that is what you encounter first -not the cam. I would suspect you know this.
also curious on the 2S cam I know there are several versions - I have several on my shelf but they actually have the "oil sling ring" on the center of the cam and are drilled. Obviously sling ring not functional on 200000 engines.
I had not heard of a 2S with no sling ring whether plain or scrolled bushes.
Any info/details appreciated.
PM me if desired thanks
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What I know would fit on the head of a stick pin. I barely know what I was doing 10 minute ago.
The engine is the original engine that came in the '67 P11. I have no clue what the series is. The 2S cam did not just go into the cases obviously. The timing side crank case had to be modified to function like a Commando case. Some work was done on the interior of the cases for clearance as well. The bush ends are the same, but the cam required some shimming at the timing side end. The timing side gears and chain had to be changed from the big magneto drive stuff to Commando timing gears and chain. I have a Commando timing cover on it. I'm not very anal about all this, so I could have missed some important tech details that make me sound incompetent, and made a terminology mistake or two. I'm not much of a teacher, I'm a doer.
I'd have to take the motor apart to see what is going on with whatever the sling ring is on the cam. I did all this stuff in the late 80's early 90's, and didn't document the work at all. It was just another toy to play with. Rare as early P11's actually are, P11's weren't worth a sack of farts back then.
What I sort of remember is the crank was sent out for balancing and lightening up to whomever was building motors for Gene Romero at the time (could have been Gene for all I know), pistons are .020 over flat top, stock P11 head went to Europe with Phil Radford to be ported by Fred Barlow of FBS, head is also shaved a little. Intake ports are 31mm at the entrance, and my custom intake manifolds are blended from 35mm at the carb end down to 31mm at the head end.
The breather disc is in a box on the shelf with the original P11 cam. Of what little memory I do have, the 2S cam is solid. It does have the drive slots at the end to drive a breather disc (stock blank?), but no center drilled hole out to the end of the cam from the sling ring. If the cam has holes drilled in what I think you are calling the sling ring, they are only shallow holes. It does have the scrolled bush surfaces. Bob Raber told me to remove everything related to the breather. Only piece I can find now is the breather disc. Might be a couple of pieces that help that disc do its job missing. Not exactly sure though. I bought the 2S cam back during the "You know all those 2S cams were too soft?" scare. Raber ensured me the cam was not one of the soft ones. Motor hauls the mail (for a little 750) after 7K miles, so I figure the cam is probably good.
Edit: I lied about the Boyer MkIV stator plate being 2X the thickness of the MkIII stator plate. I just swapped in the MkIV stator plate and it measures .037" thinker. Hard to tell exactly with a Harbor Freight digital caliper though.
The engine is the original engine that came in the '67 P11. I have no clue what the series is. The 2S cam did not just go into the cases obviously. The timing side crank case had to be modified to function like a Commando case. Some work was done on the interior of the cases for clearance as well. The bush ends are the same, but the cam required some shimming at the timing side end. The timing side gears and chain had to be changed from the big magneto drive stuff to Commando timing gears and chain. I have a Commando timing cover on it. I'm not very anal about all this, so I could have missed some important tech details that make me sound incompetent, and made a terminology mistake or two. I'm not much of a teacher, I'm a doer.
I'd have to take the motor apart to see what is going on with whatever the sling ring is on the cam. I did all this stuff in the late 80's early 90's, and didn't document the work at all. It was just another toy to play with. Rare as early P11's actually are, P11's weren't worth a sack of farts back then.
What I sort of remember is the crank was sent out for balancing and lightening up to whomever was building motors for Gene Romero at the time (could have been Gene for all I know), pistons are .020 over flat top, stock P11 head went to Europe with Phil Radford to be ported by Fred Barlow of FBS, head is also shaved a little. Intake ports are 31mm at the entrance, and my custom intake manifolds are blended from 35mm at the carb end down to 31mm at the head end.
The breather disc is in a box on the shelf with the original P11 cam. Of what little memory I do have, the 2S cam is solid. It does have the drive slots at the end to drive a breather disc (stock blank?), but no center drilled hole out to the end of the cam from the sling ring. If the cam has holes drilled in what I think you are calling the sling ring, they are only shallow holes. It does have the scrolled bush surfaces. Bob Raber told me to remove everything related to the breather. Only piece I can find now is the breather disc. Might be a couple of pieces that help that disc do its job missing. Not exactly sure though. I bought the 2S cam back during the "You know all those 2S cams were too soft?" scare. Raber ensured me the cam was not one of the soft ones. Motor hauls the mail (for a little 750) after 7K miles, so I figure the cam is probably good.
Edit: I lied about the Boyer MkIV stator plate being 2X the thickness of the MkIII stator plate. I just swapped in the MkIV stator plate and it measures .037" thinker. Hard to tell exactly with a Harbor Freight digital caliper though.
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OK no problem, a single chain engine(200000) 2S cam in a twin chain engine (20M3). While I have not done one I know I could. The stationary disc is held in the correct orientation by a single tiny dowel pin. I know these well as some guy on a 20M3S tried to hammer out the bush using a piece of round stock in the breather hole and destroyed/cracked the hardened disc, and failed to get the bush out.
Today you can buy a new 2S cam grind for a twin chain engine. It is the basis for my "combat atlas" engine project sitting on the work bench.
I bought 2 of the HF calipers and both promptly died within the life of the first battery LOL
Today you can buy a new 2S cam grind for a twin chain engine. It is the basis for my "combat atlas" engine project sitting on the work bench.
I bought 2 of the HF calipers and both promptly died within the life of the first battery LOL
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- Apr 22, 2020
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This is getting way off topic, but what the heck.
Biggest problem I had with the P11 pseudo Atlas to Combat conversion was getting pressure out of the crankcase. I didn't put all the recommended (at the time) holes in the timing side of the crankcase, and have never been motivated enough to tear it apart again to do it. Just enough of the right holes for oiling were done though. I didn't auger out the bit near the sump. However, that may have been done by the guy that did the machine work to get the Combat cam in there. I can't remember what it looked like, and don't know if that was a well known modification at the time. I just put it back together, shimmed the cam, and drilled one maybe two other holes on the timing side for crank case pressure relief. I know I didn't make them large enough though. Everyone was telling me it was gonna break, so I drilled the holes smaller as if that would make any difference. If I only knew then what I know now.
With regard to getting pressure out of the crankcase: I unfortunately have a 2 into 1 exhaust pipe I like the looks of. It blocks the sump drain, so can't use the cool looking sump breather. Hence, I made up a micky mouse breather catch can setup that is attached to a 1/4-inch cover plate bolted over the magneto hole, and also vented one exhaust valve cover, and the intake cover with 5/16ths hose barb fittings. Those 5/16th inch hoses coming from the valve covers run into a plastic prescription container catch can.
I tried running the bike with a 5/8ths hose with PCV valve coming out of the magneto cover plate with nothing but a small air filter on it. That was wasn't enough, so I added the valve cover vents after talking to an retired Norton road racer at a big show that suggested it. Also added another outlet using a 3/8th-inch hose barb threaded into the magneto cover plate. Darn thing still barfs up oil mist out of the timing side into the breather catch can deal, but it is minimal. End result of all this nonsense is it'll pull hard until it explodes. When there was too much crankcase pressure, it was a turd and would not wind up at all.
Oh yeah also had to add a hole from outside the timing side crank case to feed the wires through the timing cavity and into the points housing for the ignition points, which were later changed to Boyer MkIII ignition.
OK that's enough typing therapy for today. I'll return to the rubber room.
Biggest problem I had with the P11 pseudo Atlas to Combat conversion was getting pressure out of the crankcase. I didn't put all the recommended (at the time) holes in the timing side of the crankcase, and have never been motivated enough to tear it apart again to do it. Just enough of the right holes for oiling were done though. I didn't auger out the bit near the sump. However, that may have been done by the guy that did the machine work to get the Combat cam in there. I can't remember what it looked like, and don't know if that was a well known modification at the time. I just put it back together, shimmed the cam, and drilled one maybe two other holes on the timing side for crank case pressure relief. I know I didn't make them large enough though. Everyone was telling me it was gonna break, so I drilled the holes smaller as if that would make any difference. If I only knew then what I know now.
With regard to getting pressure out of the crankcase: I unfortunately have a 2 into 1 exhaust pipe I like the looks of. It blocks the sump drain, so can't use the cool looking sump breather. Hence, I made up a micky mouse breather catch can setup that is attached to a 1/4-inch cover plate bolted over the magneto hole, and also vented one exhaust valve cover, and the intake cover with 5/16ths hose barb fittings. Those 5/16th inch hoses coming from the valve covers run into a plastic prescription container catch can.
I tried running the bike with a 5/8ths hose with PCV valve coming out of the magneto cover plate with nothing but a small air filter on it. That was wasn't enough, so I added the valve cover vents after talking to an retired Norton road racer at a big show that suggested it. Also added another outlet using a 3/8th-inch hose barb threaded into the magneto cover plate. Darn thing still barfs up oil mist out of the timing side into the breather catch can deal, but it is minimal. End result of all this nonsense is it'll pull hard until it explodes. When there was too much crankcase pressure, it was a turd and would not wind up at all.
Oh yeah also had to add a hole from outside the timing side crank case to feed the wires through the timing cavity and into the points housing for the ignition points, which were later changed to Boyer MkIII ignition.
OK that's enough typing therapy for today. I'll return to the rubber room.
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