Third wishe for 2016 forlfiled: Yam TD rear brake

No. normally race bikes do not have crush drives but there are exceptions

I thought that all old classic race bikes have cush drives, except for production racer two strokes. I use a manx clutch with rubbers in the hub on the Seeley. My TZ 350 G did not have a cush drive, but every other bike I've owned has had it. Might have something to do with the torque ?

Yves may see this question and respond regarding whether the yamaha TD hub that he used has a cush drive or not. I don't know if it did.

In my own yamaha wheel modification, the cush drive hub was one of the prime reasons I chose the yamaha cast wheel. My original early commando stock hub had no cush drive. When I had the non-cush stock hub, when I would shift from neutral into 1st gear the gearbox would make a loud "Click". Now with the cush hub installed, I don't have that "click" when I put it into gear. I beleive the rubber cush drive is softening the blows when my gears mesh.

If you're asking this question because you want to adapt a certain non-norton wheel to your bike, there's a lot of challenges, like relocating the brake and cables, relocating the speedo drive, and realigning the hub center and the sprockets. (just like Yves, I had to make custom spacers and to cut down the face of my sprocket carrier by .25" to align my sprocket after centering the hub) There's a lot of work if you go away from norton parts. If I had to do it again, I might stick with my spoke wheels and just buy madass's hub and alloy rims, which bolt up with no headaches.... I'm happy with what I have now, it just wasn't easy or economical.

the TD hubs dont have cush drive,

hi yves
keep it as it is , this set up ,as in the first pic , is how it should be done imho.
by attaching your brakeplate (free revolving as you have done ) to the frame or as close as possible to it , you prevent from locking your wheel at a sudden hard stop

Tony Foale ; when there is no parallelogram linkage (as attaching the brake to you swinging arm ) a serious problem may arise . That is rear wheel hop or judder under heavy braking.sudden application of the brake applies a sharp torque to the pivoted arm (or fork or swinging arm ),tending to compress the suspension. Since the the unsprung mass of the wheel is much less than the sprung mass ( the rest of the bike ) the wheel tends to leave the ground more quickly than the rest of the bike tends to move downward;as the wheel leaves the ground , the tyre loses traction , the brake locks and so the copressing moment is gone .When the wheel touches down , it may cause skidding

I have build all my conversions this way , it is easy to do with a couple of rose joints
just make sure your brakeplate can freely rotate

tot in den draai
als je problemen hebt met bussen om je brakeplate vrij te laten draaien wil ik altijd wel even inspringen

thats the problem, his brake plate doesnt rotate . its fixed solid

lynxnsu said:

hi yves
keep it as it is , this set up ,as in the first pic , is how it should be done imho.
by attaching your brakeplate (free revolving as you have done ) to the frame or as close as possible to it , you prevent from locking your wheel at a sudden hard stop

Tony Foale ; when there is no parallelogram linkage (as attaching the brake to you swinging arm ) a serious problem may arise . That is rear wheel hop or judder under heavy braking.sudden application of the brake applies a sharp torque to the pivoted arm (or fork or swinging arm ),tending to compress the suspension. Since the the unsprung mass of the wheel is much less than the sprung mass ( the rest of the bike ) the wheel tends to leave the ground more quickly than the rest of the bike tends to move downward;as the wheel leaves the ground , the tyre loses traction , the brake locks and so the copressing moment is gone .When the wheel touches down , it may cause skidding

I have build all my conversions this way , it is easy to do with a couple of rose joints
just make sure your brakeplate can freely rotate

tot in den draai
als je problemen hebt met bussen om je brakeplate vrij te laten draaien wil ik altijd wel even inspringen

Click to expand...

Hy Gerbrand,
Now that the hollydays are ended, I will go back to the workshop tomorow and i still don't decide what to do:
1: fit the brake plate to the swing arm
2: make that the brake plate can freely rotate

I have to say that I never see any rear drumbraque where the brake plate can freely rotate

Bedankt voor je hulp proposal, maar ik heb een top draaier kort bij huis en ik will je hier mee niet lastig vallen
Ik bel je nog even
Yves

lynxnsu said:

hi yves
keep it as it is , this set up ,as in the first pic , is how it should be done imho.
by attaching your brakeplate (free revolving as you have done ) to the frame or as close as possible to it , you prevent from locking your wheel at a sudden hard stop

Tony Foale ; when there is no parallelogram linkage (as attaching the brake to you swinging arm ) a serious problem may arise . That is rear wheel hop or judder under heavy braking.sudden application of the brake applies a sharp torque to the pivoted arm (or fork or swinging arm ),tending to compress the suspension. Since the the unsprung mass of the wheel is much less than the sprung mass ( the rest of the bike ) the wheel tends to leave the ground more quickly than the rest of the bike tends to move downward;as the wheel leaves the ground , the tyre loses traction , the brake locks and so the copressing moment is gone .When the wheel touches down , it may cause skidding

I have build all my conversions this way , it is easy to do with a couple of rose joints
just make sure your brakeplate can freely rotate

tot in den draai
als je problemen hebt met bussen om je brakeplate vrij te laten draaien wil ik altijd wel even inspringen

Click to expand...

Hy Gerbrand,
Now that the hollydays are ended, I will go back to the workshop tomorow and i still don't decide what to do:
1: fit the brake plate to the swing arm
2: make that the brake plate can freely rotate

I have to say that I never see any rear drumbraque where the brake plate can freely rotate

Bedankt voor je hulp proposal, maar ik heb een top draaier kort bij huis en ik will je hier mee niet lastig vallen
Ik bel je nog even
Yves

yves norton seeley said:

I have to say that I never see any rear drumbraque where the brake plate can freely rotate

Click to expand...

Not too surprising. I don't know of any street bikes that use that design, and it wasn't very common on race bikes. But there were some race bikes with a floating rear brake plate with the brake stay located on the frame. The only examples I have good pictures of are the DKW 350 triple and several factory Moto-Guzzi race bikes from the '50s, including the V8. I'm pretty sure some of the older motocross bikes also had this design, but can't recall any details.

Ken

Honda used it on the front in the early 60's but I've not seen it used on the rear.

Hello there,
I take mij final descicion:
I will weld some gusset on the swingarm to fit the anchor bar so i can keep the brake plate like original.
When I see the pic from the Yamsel post bij Nortonspeed, I am convicted!
I am sure that Colinn Seeley knows what hi did
Lot of thanks to all of you
Yves

I use the rear brake with the stay attached to the back of the engine plate, however I think that if it was attached to the swing arm, the difference would be irrelevant. There might be a very small difference in feel, however the rear brake is only used to steady the bike under normal circumstances and sometimes in a crash-stop situation when you need maximum braking. Your attention might be more effective if directed at getting your front brake set up right.

Yves you took the right decision to change your mounting point to the swing arm.

acotrel said:

On my bike the other end of the brake stay is attached to the engine plate below the pivot, making a parallelogram.

Click to expand...

Maybe I am wrong but this doesn't look like a parallelogram (two PAIRS of PARALLEL sides) to me and IF your brake drum plate is in fixed position (not being able to rotate on the wheel axle) then your brake stay mounting point should not be mounted to anything else than the swing arm :!:

nortonspeed said:

Yves you took the right decision to change your mounting point to the swing arm.

acotrel said:

On my bike the other end of the brake stay is attached to the engine plate below the pivot, making a parallelogram.

Click to expand...

Maybe I am wrong but this doesn't look like a parallelogram (two PAIRS of PARALLEL sides) to me and IF your brake drum plate is in fixed position (not being able to rotate on the wheel axle) then your brake stay mounting point should not be mounted to anything else than the swing arm :!:

Click to expand...

yes if the brake plate is not floating you definatley need to anchor the brake plate to the swing arm

Hy There,
So the job is done, the anchor bar is on the swingarm and the braque plate is still sandwiched in the swingarm
I weld two triangular SS gusset on the swingarm and fit the rose joint between, I welded with Stainlees steel apport; so the whole thing will not rust and can be polished and there is no damage on the chromed swingarm. I will post a pic tomotrrow
Now I have to wait that the idiots stop with putting tons of salt on the roads to test the braque, my street looks like the Bonneville Salt Flats
Thanks
Yves

Hi there,
Here are the pics:
As you can see I keep the brake plate sandwiched in the swingarm and I weld two SS gusset on the swingarm, I use a anchor bar with two rose joint, one with right tread and one with left tread
You will ask why? Well I wish to keep the possibility to keep the air scoop vertical when I move the weel forward or backwards to do the chain tension.
I can adjust the brakeplate with no pressure on the axle nut, using a 8mm spanner on the anchorbar.
I did the whole job with almost no damage to the chrome from the swingarm, and it will never rust becouse the welding is also SS
I will keep you posted after the first try on the salt free roads
Yves
I

All sweet and hunky-dory ! The only time the way the stay is mounted affects the handling is in extreme road race conditions when you find the need to steady the bike when it is cranked over. Then it might make a slight difference. I have never been conscious of that difference, because I rarely use the back brake anyway.

acotrel said:

All sweet and hunky-dory ! The only time the way the stay is mounted affects the handling is in extreme road race conditions when you find the need to steady the bike when it is cranked over. Then it might make a slight difference. I have never been conscious of that difference, because I rarely use the back brake anyway.

Click to expand...

Whether the back brake is used or not dosent really matter neither does the point about handling,if the torque arm is mounted to the frame the brake plate will need to be bushed ,I am happy that Yves has done this successfully on a beautiful bike , well done Yves

madass140 said:

thats the problem, his brake plate doesnt rotate . its fixed solid

Click to expand...

i meant the previous set up , with his disc
sorry to be not specific enough

a friends special , a project inherited from 79x100 , has a manx-lookalike drum and that has been converted to floating drum-brakeplate , so it is quite easily to be done , if you have acces to a lathe

yves , ik denk dat je pattes wat aan de lange kant zijn
bij serieus remmen zet je daar nogal wat krachten op , best is deze zo kort mogelijk te houden om plooien-afrukken te voorkomen
ik zet dit in het nederlands om n iet te betweterig over te komen bij onze amerikaanse vrienden

And what are your 3 wishes for 2017?