The Perfect Classic Road Racer

If you look at top level competition all through the ages though, there have mostly only ever been 3 or 4 riders capable of competing at the front.
Heck, in Agos' or Doohans' or Rossis' eras, there was often only one possible winner.
And look whats happening in MotoGP at the moment, only one winner for 5 races so far.
Not to mention the current F1 two horse race...

So racing back in the pack with other bikes with similar performance has only ever mostly what racing has been all about. ??
What matter if they are 2 strokes or 4 strokes.

$90k is a bit of an exaggeration, it was more like $50k ?
Top level racing has never been cheap.
A new manx back in the 1950s cost more than a house ?

Rohan said:

If you look at top level competition all through the ages though, there have mostly only ever been 3 or 4 riders capable of competing at the front.

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Perhaps only a select few are given the opportunity at any one time,plenty with promise never get a shot.
Unless things have changed at the top level you needed to bring money to the table also in the form of sponsorship or the like.
Without stating the obvious,the next fast guy is already there but you can't see him yet given they are at a different level,you then need time to adapt,some do so faster than others.

The class ACotrel is looking for is dead stock Royal Enfield 500's that have Indian mechanics flown in by Learjet for each round.
The bikes would go to impound between events,a minimal time would be allowed for preparation before the first heat of the day.
Simple rules.
1. Stock RE.
2.Tyres would be restricted to those with the highest nylon content and be of a obscure brand to promote sliding and other crowd pleasing moments.
3. No limit to the start grid numbers,50 to 100 bikes encouraged,this would fast track potential stars of the class.

Time Warp said:

The class Acotrel is looking for is dead stock Royal Enfield 500s that have Indian mechanics flown in by Learjet for each round.
The bikes would go to impound between events, a minimal time would be allowed for preparation before the first heat of the day.
Simple rules.
1. Stock RE.
2.Tyres would be restricted to those with the highest nylon content and be of a obscure brand to promote sliding and other crowd pleasing moments.
3. No limit to the start grid numbers, 50 to 100 bikes encouraged, this would fast track potential stars of the class.

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Sounds like a blast! May not ever be as popular a sport as Acotrel bashing, but I'd go along to watch.

Time Warp said:

Perhaps only a select few are given the opportunity at any one time,plenty with promise never get a shot.

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I don't know, it was pretty evident almost from the word go that folks like Marc Marquez were pretty special, and destined for greater things.
Like you can go to junior football matches, and pick out the 'naturals'.
Lotsa training can achieve perhaps the same thing, but there is no substitute for ability....

Although, given exactly equal machinery, it would be interesting to see a MotoGP race run like that.

There used to be a racing class of roaring sporties.
What happened to them. ?

They were fun to watch, and apparently improved the reliability of the stock bikes somewhat.
Quite a limit on what they were allowed to do to them - only the zorst could be changed ?
(the oil pump drive gear was plastic, and it was evident that wasn't up to racing for long).
Racing definitely improves the breed....

davamb said:

Sounds like a blast! May not ever be as popular a sport as Acotrel bashing..

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A Cotrel posts his experiences based on his perspective of actually living in those time periods,anyone else who was not there is basing theirs on opinion only.
I would rather read that of those who were than not.

Within the next decade there will next to no WWII veterans left,only what they wrote or conveyed, anything after will be hearsay be it true or false.

A lot of what Alan posts are his opinions, thoughts - and rambling ideas !
And some of those are demonstrably not correct. (not to mention sometimes contradictory)
As any student of motorcycle history would/should be all too aware of.
(Some of think this is just some form of attention seeking....).

It would be remiss of us, in the extreme, not to post an opposing (and more correct !) view.
Thats how discussions work, and the record gets amended and corrected....

If folks in the future read here, and take everything said here all as the gospel truth,
then all that can be said is ^%& *&*^*, they will be one confused bunny...

P.S. Take a look around, some of the folks here also post on some of the racing forums.
Some of the racing forums have said b*gger off , we don't want silly comments or such heresy here... !!!

We just go out to have fun.

Nortons are too expensive for me so its old German tractors for some of us.
Mike has 'issues' with the Norton which was a shame as I think the BMW might have given him a good run for his money.

This one has fancy piston and a cam.
I did 5 6 lap races on it yesterday, he did 3 and his missus did one.

My mate who is a former engine reconditioner helped me build up a 1000 cc motor out of a stuffed 1000 and an 800.
He machined down the cylinders and created a tight squish band, left the heads and cam stock. Probably got about 60 BHP now.
Total cost of motor about $800. The previous motor was retired after 50 races.
I enjoy the build, the people and the riding.

Time Warp said:

Within the next decade there will next to no WWII veterans left,only what they wrote or conveyed, anything after will be hearsay be it true or false.

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So, historical documents are hearsay?

Yeef.

[So racing back in the pack with other bikes with similar performance has only ever mostly what racing has been all about. ??[/quote]

Couldn't agree more! Of course when you're chasing points etc it matters. But when you're in the thick of it, in the moment, all that matters - and I mean ALL THAT MATTERS is beating that guy in front of you, irrespective of where you both are in the pack. In fact the rest of the pack doesn't even exist!!

Racing that BMW would be good fun. It doesn't matter much what you ride as long as the playing field is fairly level. A 60 BHP BMW has much the same tuning problems as a Norton twin. At least the BMW has a two valve motor of similar BMEP, however the handling might put you behind the 8 ball a bit. I've often thought owning a BMW would be good, however if you have to change gearing, it might be more difficult than with a chain drive bike.
I was talking to a young guy who had a short stroke 750cc commando production racer at Broadford Bonanza three weeks ago. He told me that it is very competitive, and he has even beaten many modern bikes with it. He made the same bleating noises that I often make - about taking his bike to race meetings and every other 'historic bike' there is Japanese. His bike was interesting, I'd not seen the genuine article previously. I don't believe complaining does any good, our guys seem to think historic racing is as good as it gets, however I've been going to road race meetings since 1954 and I believe we've seen the best of it. It is no good looking back, and I just hope you guys can find a way to have a good competitive sport without going broke. What is the best road race class for 'C Graders' these days ?

Rohan, I appreciate the kind of enthusiast you are. We need more people dedicated to loving the old bikes for what they are. I believe that carving up an old bike to go historic racing is not good. My own bike has been built up out of bits. My feeling is that we need the Chinese factory turning out high quality 500cc Molnar Manx Nortons, retailing for $15,000 each - then we could have some really fun racing.

Cheers Acotrel,
Yes it is good fun and if you have someone to play with its even better. Sunday was not like that as Mikes Norton blew up, and I was easily able to out pace one of the CB 350s', the other one battled my mate on his BMW, those Hondas can go.
We entered in Pre 89 but those big Jap bikes are just too fast for my old BMW.
I don't think I have the riding skills to go much faster....the idea of 260 kmph gives me the heebeejeebies.
I'm used to the handling, limitation is knowing those cylinders get very close and sometimes touch down.
Shaft drive you just have to get off the brakes and on to the throttle, if you throttle off sure goes wide quick.
I can't really understand the guys who spend lots of money getting others to do the work on a bike, and someone else rides it.
Whats that all about.

72Combat said:

I can't really understand the guys who spend lots of money getting others to do the work on a bike, and someone else rides it. Whats that all about.

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Sometimes it's age, sometimes it's injuries that preclude riding, sometimes it's knowing you stink as a rider, but you know a fast kid that needs a ride, etc...

acotrel said:

Racing that BMW would be good fun. It doesn't matter much what you ride as long as the playing field is fairly level.

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Agree about the BM.
Nice to get a report of fun racing...

But,
We think that 'level playing field' is the sticking point here. ??
And you seem rather stuck on it....

As long as everyone has someone to dice with, does it matter they are all precisely the same performance.
As long as the differences are not too great as to be dangerous on track, mixing a field of varying performances
is going to result in grids with more numbers = more races per rider ??

You are rather opposite to what is happening in hysterical racing = shrinking grids....

??

acotrel said:

My feeling is that we need the Chinese factory turning out high quality 500cc Molnar Manx Nortons, retailing for $15,000 each - then we could have some really fun racing.

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Couldnt agree more.

But its not going to happen.
There are a mighty lot of intricate machining operations in a Manx, many of them to critical dimensions.
And they push the material spec near to the limit.

So doing it on the cheap is not likely to succeed, for long.
That aforementioned propensity for Manxs to self destruct in about any of 20 different ways, if any of the critical setups are out of whack again....

So bucket racing seems just as fun an idea, without the cost or quality compromises, on well proven and tried and tested machinery ??
How about a field of 865 Triumphs, or those DOHC Kwaka 650 twins.
$15k or less, and come with a warranty. !
THERES your level playing field...

They run a Hyosung 250 V twin class here, sort of next step up on Bucket Racing. I think they are restricted on what mods they can do.
I think the crowd has changed here, more of a 40's/50's age group who want to see Jap bikes racing, bikes they remember.
I have not youthful memories of British bikes or any desire to own and race one.
As the price of Nortons, Triumphs etc rise less and less of them are going to be seen on the track.
I might be keen on a Hinckley Triumph Twin class where modifications are limited, but even then its $15 NZ ( 12K US), and would be forced to get parts of the local distributor ...no thanks.