The Commando Frame - NOC Roadholder May 2018

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Triton Thrasher said:
P


Guess what.
The Commando Frame - NOC Roadholder May 2018
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My god, is that all the captured German scientists could come up with?

Only kidding (as I was in my original reply). Yes that engine design which I think I'm right in saying was copied from the DKW RT125 by many manufacturers after WW2 including MZ (the rightful heirs) B.S.A, Jawa / CZ, Harley, WSK, Voskhod, Minsk, Panonia and probably some Japanese companies as well.

It's actually one of the nicest Harley's I've seen ;)
 
cliffa said:
My god, is that all the captured German scientists could come up with?

Only kidding (as I was in my original reply). Yes that engine design which I think I'm right in saying was copied from the DKW RT125 by many manufacturers after WW2 including MZ (the rightful heirs) B.S.A, Jawa / CZ, Harley, WSK, Voskhod, Minsk, Panonia and probably some Japanese companies as well.

It's actually one of the nicest Harley's I've seen ;)
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Yamaha and Ossa made them too.
 
One thing which interests me is the role of industrial democracy in industry. The Germans did extremely well without it during the thirties and WW2, but the allies won the war. How do you achieve the 'continual improvement' requirement of ISO9000, if all improvements come from the top and the industrial system is totally directive ? With the Japanese workers, the controls are internalised - makes me wonder about the Germans.
 
oldmikew said:
The Atlas engine -road going ,had a reputation for low mileage 20-30000 before bearing failure. There was a reason . The bearings were pushed into the cases cold by a hydraulic press , the operative used so much pressure that the cases used to flex and bend under load...

The Article I mentioned was in Motorcycle Sport .It was written after NVT had collapsed and left Marston Road
I think 1978 or 79 . Sorry I cannot be more specific but it deals with Andover and Wolverhampton days.

My uncle told me this story of setting up the timing on a Merlin engine during WW2 . His mate a Londoner had done it many times,but whenever asked he would always say 'youll have to find out mate' some how AMC and then NVT management seems to have pushed th workforce in to this default
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This is the problem of repeating hearsay or anecdotes - more nonsense. Pressing in hardened steel bearing assemblies into cold, soft aluminium alloy castings will damage the castings not the bearings, assuming the force was applied to the outer race. You would have thought during any press operation the casing would be adequately supported to prevent bending and distortion. If Atlas engines sufferred from bearing failure then there will be another reason. I thought you may have problems producing the alledged magazine article. It is pointless quoting from resources you do not have, which makes the information about as useful as a story retold by a man in a pub. The last paragraph being a case in point - I wonder where your uncle got the story from?

Getting back on topic...I found the Commnado frame article very interesting, especially the description and diagram of the stress bearing parts of the frame pointing out that the pair of lower frame tubes are mainly to provide a mounting point for the front isolastic, which then forms an axis with the rear isolastic, sideways rotational movement being limited by the headsteady. Which makes the fitting of a fourth isolastic mounted on the gearbox cradle redundant as the distance (leverage) from the front and rear iso axis between the head steady mounting point and the fourth iso mounting point is in the ratio of 3:1 in favour of the headsteady mounting point. The fourth isolastic also relying on a relatively weak area of the frame for supoort.

I always thought the Roadholder was largely made up of filler to pad out the magazine. I know this because I was having a chat with a bloke one evening in a local pub.....
 
mdt-son said:
they tell a tale of low work ethics and nonsense going on, e.g. tossing oily rags at each other, damaging semi-finished goods, and slowing down the assembly line. Maybe middle management didn't keep the workforce on a tight leash? The working conditions (no daylight, extremely old-fashioned assembly line, and an impractical facility) certainly didn't aspire to high motivation.
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Sadly, this was very comon in the U.K. in the 50s through the 70s. Hancock’s tells similar sad tails about what happened at Triumph too. BSA was riddled with issues. And the car industry and others were at least as bad.

People like to blame management, and quite right too as they had a huge part to play. But the image that the Great British worker was fighting his best fight, only to be thwarted by inept management is wrong.

Weak management was half the problem. Overly strong unions and poor work ethic was the other half. Put together, this created two sides that were spending all their energy fighting each other and NOT fighting to improve the business.

This is even blatant to see in cultural media of the day. Look at how “everybody out” strikes featured in ‘Carry On films’. Look at how the two lazy skivers were the “hero’s” in ‘On The Buses’ and the depot foreman Blakey “I hate you Butler” (simply trying to get buses out on time) was portrayed as Hitler!

When you compare all this nonesense to post war Japan, where all workers had the ‘Kaizen Culture’ (a constant search for a better way) and an obsessive focus on eliminating ‘Muda’ (waste) and the difference is astonishing. And that’s not even considering the difference in technology or products.

What has happened since is very interesting though, Honda, Nissan and Toyota all have super efficient plants in U.K. Triumph uses similar Japanese based work methods too, as do all the surviving British (in name at least) car companies (except Morgan). Norton would no doubt benefit massively from adopting such methods too.

But ALL of these companies have radically changed their management styles AND so have the unions. So, eventually, the British worker has proved that they can perform, when the management and unions get their acts together !

Sorry for the soap box rant, but it’s a subject close to my heart and I get easily ‘poked’ !!
 
Chris ton a bike said:
..Which makes the fitting of a fourth isolastic mounted on the gearbox cradle redundant as the distance (leverage) from the front and rear iso axis between the head steady mounting point and the fourth iso mounting point is in the ratio of 3:1 in favour of the headsteady mounting point. The fourth isolastic also relying on a relatively weak area of the frame for supoort.

...
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A fourth iso mounting point makes no sense .
Iso clearance is set at 0.20 mm or less .
Simply putting the bike on its side stand will make the frame flex more than 0.20 mm .
3 points are allways in one plane .
4 points ( almost ) never ..
 
acotrel said:
One thing which interests me is the role of industrial democracy in industry. The Germans did extremely well without it during the thirties and WW2, but the allies won the war. How do you achieve the 'continual improvement' requirement of ISO9000, if all improvements come from the top and the industrial system is totally directive ? With the Japanese workers, the controls are internalised - makes me wonder about the Germans.
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That's am interesting topic. Although the population is generally submissive to their leaders, they are also critical in a constructive way. Those with technical skills and imagination are keen to promote their ideas - both from a competition perspective vs. collegues ("I will shine by making this proposal") as well as from the perspective of social thinking ("what benefits the company will in the end be of benefit to me and my collegues"). Germans are also obsessed with order, perfection and cost effectiveness. All of these sentiments pull the german industry and its workforce in the same direction - steadily improvements. The motivation is different to the japanese workforce - the end result is similar.

-Knut
 
ludwig said:
A fourth iso mounting point makes no sense .
Iso clearance is set at 0.20 mm or less .
Simply putting the bike on its side stand will make the frame flex more than 0.20 mm .
3 points are allways in one plane .
4 points ( almost ) never ..
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3 points are always in one plane as this is the definition of a plane, which is an imaginary surface and only two dimensional (x and y) as it has no depth so no use when working on motorbikes as they are 3D. There are two planes to consider on any bike but especially a Commando for the isolastics to work properly, the horizontal and vertical and as we are working in 3D you must add depth. So we always need to reference x, y and z as in CMM equipment (co-ordinant measuring machines) then you are able to put as many points as you like on the same plane (or very close to) as long as you can accurately project from the horizontal and vertical.
 
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mdt-son said:
That's am interesting topic. Although the population is generally submissive to their leaders, they are also critical in a constructive way. Those with technical skills and imagination are keen to promote their ideas - both from a competition perspective vs. collegues ("I will shine by making this proposal") as well as from the perspective of social thinking ("what benefits the company will in the end be of benefit to me and my collegues"). Germans are also obsessed with order, perfection and cost effectiveness. All of these sentiments pull the german industry and its workforce in the same direction - steadily improvements. The motivation is different to the japanese workforce - the end result is similar.

-Knut
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In German enterprises there is something called " Mitbestimmung " ( co -dertermination ) wich gives workers and employees a vote in how the company is run . Seems to work pretty well ..
 
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Chris ton a bike said:
3 points are always in one plane as this is the definition of a plane, which is an imaginary surface and only two dimensional (x and y) as it has no depth so no use when working on motorbikes as they are 3D. There are two planes to consider on any bike but especially a Commando for the isolastics to work properly, the horizontal and vertical and as we are working in 3D you must add depth. So we always need to reference x, y and z as in CMM equipment (co-ordinant measuring machines) then you are able to put as many points as you like on the same plane (or very close to) as long as you can accurately project from the horizontal and vertical.
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Don't make it sound more complicated than it is .
No matter how many points you put on a plane , it will still be 2-dimensional .
The essence of the isolastic system is that the engine - swingarm unit can move " freely " in one plane , = 3 points .
Adding a 4th point ( or a fifth , or a sixth ..) will negate the isolastic efect , because frame flex will make the isos bind up .

The Commando Frame - NOC Roadholder May 2018
 
ludwig said:
Don't make it sound more complicated than it is .
No matter how many points you put on a plane , it will still be 2-dimensional .
The essence of the isolastic system is that the engine - swingarm unit can move " freely " in one plane , = 3 points .
Adding a 4th point ( or a fifth , or a sixth ..) will negate the isolastic efect , because frame flex will make the isos bind up .

The Commando Frame - NOC Roadholder May 2018
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The three points A,B and C in the 2 dimensional picture do form a plane because both the picture, or the surface of the picture and a plane are only two dimensional. Problem is a motorcycle is 3 dimensional and is made up of an infinite number of vertical and horizontal planes because it has height, length and depth or x, y and z. I am not recommending fitting a fourth isolastic as there is nothinh to be gained. Sorry you find it complicated.
 
My commando has an extra iso under the gearbox,
And also another iso in place of the head steady similar to a norvil head staedy,
I would never repeat never go back to standard isolastics , this is just my opinion of course
 
Eddie,
Is it possible to have a union which is too strong if it is on-side with the management and pointing in the right direction ? How many British companies have Employee Share Ownership Programmes, Productivity Gain-sharing and Self-managed Work Groups. The capitalist system has been proved to be the one which works, perhaps it does not really need to be so exploitive ? One thing I have noticed about British immigrants in Australia, is that when they encounter our industrial system, they almost have a fit. Many become our union reps - so we inherit the same old attitudes in response to the same old problems. ISO 9000 is a key issue - the required documentation should serve as a basis for training and enable workers to self-manage - all that is needed then is sensible leadership.
 
I don't doubt that the isolastics work well on Commandos. However in previous models, the crank is balanced to suit the rev range in which the motor is most used. If the isolastics provide rider comfort, do they also stop the crank from beating the cases to death when the motor is revving beyond the range for which the lower balance factor is designed. If the motor moves in repose to a vibration, the isolastics accommodate the force but only up to the point at which they are in full compression. High revs seem to kill Commando crankcases in the standard bike.
 
Because my 850 motor is rigidly mounted in the Seeley, I have balanced the crank by filling the hole in the flywheel with a threaded steel plug which is held in with blue Loctite with the threads punched. That plug probably weighs about one pound. What happens to the vibes in as standard Commando if you balance the crank to 72% by doing that ? At 6000 RPM my motor is super smooth, so at what revs is the normal Commando crank 'in balance' ? Do the guys who race Commandos in the UK and the US rebalance their cranks to suit higher revs ?
 
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