The 650SS

worntorn · Dec 27, 2012

A couple of Coffee table MC books showed up under the tree. Mac McDiarmid's Classic Superbike's includes the Norton 650 SS.
He had this to say about the Norton:
With comparable products already available from BSA, Royal Enfield, AJS/Matchless and Triumph (the Bonneville first appeared in 59) , the SS ad to be good-and it was. Early versions suffered some failures-notably burst cylinder barrels and fatigue fractures of various fittings- but through it all shone that pedigree handling package. Ridden to the limit no other production machine could come close. And with a top speed comfortably over 110mph, the new Norton was no slouch on the straights. Not surpisingly, the 650SS went on to win production races by the score."

Also, next to a photo of the gold 650 ss rear fender decal "On any half interesting road, all you'd see of a well ridden SS was this badge disappearing into the distance"

Reminded of the great handling, I'm all charged up to fit the Newby clutch and belt drive to mine. It's time to get it back on the road !

Glen

Rohan · Dec 28, 2012

Burst cylinder barrels ? On the 650SS ??

What does he know that we don't know ??!

Triton Thrasher · Dec 28, 2012

Rohan said:
Burst cylinder barrels ? On the 650SS ??

What does he know that we don't know ??!

Coffee table books are a bit like that, aren't they?

worntorn · Dec 28, 2012

Well I don't know how factual his info is, but this part "ridden to the limit, no other production machine could come close" did stir the blood.
It's hard to come up with a bike from 1962 that would have been a match for it. The Goldie was known as a great handling bike but would have substantially less oomph coming out of a corner. The other 650 twins were lacking in handling, so his statement about performance likely is correct.
The Bonnie was about the fastest in a straight line until the 650SS showed up. I have a copy of the Road test done by Motorcycling in 1962. Bruce Mainsmith is the tester. He took the new SS to the MIRA testing facility and registered a very high top speed, about ten mph higher than the Bonneville they had recently tested there.

Glen

gory · Dec 28, 2012

to be fair, the comment is that early versions suffered some failures - it does not say they were common, nor suffered by later versions

daveh · Dec 28, 2012

worntorn said:
I have a copy of the Road test done by Motorcycling in 1962. Bruce Mainsmith is the tester. He took the new SS to the MIRA testing facility and registered a very high top speed, about ten mph higher than the Bonneville they had recently tested there.

Glen

Glen - please don't leave us hanging! What were the figures for top speeds of the 650SS and the Bonneville tested earlier? Any other data such as braking distances, acceleration? Ten mph does seem a big difference considering they were both sporty 650 twins. Did they do a two-way average top speed test? A genuine (rather than indicated) 110 mph seems very high too, about on par with a bog standard 850 Commando?

I wonder if anyone on the forum would be prepared to see what his 650SS would do?

A 650SS would be one of the very few road bikes from the 1960s that I would like to own.

Dave

grandpaul · Dec 28, 2012

110 sounds believable to me, with a properly tuned engine and a lightweight rider in a zero-headwind situation on a good road...

kraakevik · Dec 28, 2012

Bob Currie's 1981 book cites a contemporary MIRA road test of a 1962 650SS with a top speed of 111 mph, and a highest one-way speed of 118 mph with a strong three-quarter wind.

The same book has another 1962 MIRA road test of a Bonneville with a top speed of 110 mph and a highest one-way speed of 112 mph with a light tail wind.

As a kid in Africa I owned a '62 650SS that was capable of 110 mph indicated on the Benue Plateau nearly a mile above sea level. At that altitude it was quicker and faster than the 650 Tiger one of my buddies ran. When I rode a Bonneville after the war my impression was that the heavier 650SS would still have taken it--the torque curve just seemed better right through the gears

Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net

worntorn · Dec 28, 2012

I'll dig out the test and see if my memory is close to the actual number. The 118 / 111 number Tim mentioned sounds like the right number.

What are the rules re scanning and posting published material from the distant past? I'm thinking I could post the entire Bruce Mainsmith article.

Glen

worntorn · Dec 28, 2012

I've got the OK to post the article but can't find it. I did find an 1981 article from Classic Bike, so I will post that and keep looking for the Bruce Mainsmith test.

worntorn · Dec 28, 2012

You will have to guess at the last letter of the words at the far right, that little bit got snipped somewhere in the scanning/posting process. The interesting thing is that the quality of the print once posted to this site is much better than in the Photobucket album or in my saved files.
Glen

grandpaul · Dec 28, 2012

Top Speed - 119 MPH

Theoretical, or actual?

worntorn · Dec 28, 2012

I'm guessing the author is quoting the speed measured at MIRA in the 1962 test. This was a wind assisted speed, the two way average was lower, probably the 111mph Tim referred to. I recall that these speeds were recorded in heavy rain with sheets of water coming down the banking at MIRA. I wouldn't have the guts to try that, even on a Featherbed with Roadholders.
Need to find the article!!

Rohan · Dec 28, 2012

gory said:
to be fair, the comment is that early versions suffered some failures - it does not say they were common, nor suffered by later versions

What early versions of 650SS ?????

Apart from some that didn't have the downdraught heads, they were all about the same, in the engine and drive depts anyway... ?

Rohan · Dec 28, 2012

worntorn said:
It's hard to come up with a bike from 1962 that would have been a match for it. The Goldie was known as a great handling bike but would have substantially less oomph coming out of a corner.

It would be interesting to see a straight fight between a Goldie and a 650SS.

Goldie is listed as doing 120 mph laps of MIRA on IoM gearing, with more than 40 bhp for a lighter (500cc) bike, and singles generally have more torque down low than a twin, so that 'lack of oomph out of a corner' may not be as solid as you think ?

Did the 650SS lap the IoM anywhere ?
Goldies won there plenty, could do plus 90+mph laps...

daveh · Dec 28, 2012

Glen - thanks for going to the effort of scanning and posting that test from Classic Bike. I'm looking forward to reading it.

worntorn · Dec 28, 2012

No problem Dave, happy to do it.

Rohan, I'm sure that 650 ss bikes did lap the IOM, but I dont have any info on that at present. One bike that scorched around the IOM was a direct ancestor to the 650ss. This was the little 500 twin that Doug Hele prepared, the one that became the first pushrod machine to lap the IOM at over 100mph. Hele used the downdraught head design of that bike for the new 650, that is were much of the extra power came in.
Talking with local Manx owner and former Westwood racer Murray Neibel, he told me that when he ran in classes that included racers on the new 650ss Nortons, he could not hold onto them out of corners. I should add that the two 650 bikes I know of that ran there used the lighter manx featherbed frame. The 650 engine itself is much lighter than a Manx engine.
If a 50 hp Manx couldnt hold on, I can't see a 40 bhp Goldstar having a chance.

Glen

Rohan · Dec 28, 2012

650cc against 500 may not be a fair fight ?
The 500cc Manx was faster than the Domiracer 500cc in the IoM - they could lap faster, more jump out of the corners, or so it was said at the time...
Still be interesting to see a 650SS IoM laptime in comparison ??

P.S. we are guessing that the comment of the comparison between a 650SS and a Manx was on a flat road course somewhere ?
IoM is like no other = tight turns, steep up hills, braking strongly for sharp corners, some downhill.
Not quite the same...

worntorn · Dec 29, 2012

Rohan said:
650cc against 500 may not be a fair fight ?
The 500cc Manx was faster than the Domiracer 500cc in the IoM - they could lap faster, more jump out of the corners, or so it was said at the time...
Still be interesting to see a 650SS IoM laptime in comparison ??

P.S. we are guessing that the comment of the comparison between a 650SS and a Manx was on a flat road course somewhere ?
IoM is like no other = tight turns, steep up hills, braking strongly for sharp corners, some downhill.
Not quite the same...

The course Murray was referring to is Westwood, a mountain course like the IOM, except I think the grades are steeper. Murray commented that the first time he saw a 650 Norton go up the Mountain he was amazed at the acceleration thru the gears and how quick the changes came. Though many Manxes, Goldies and Triumphs raced there, it was a 650 Norton that held the lap record for many years. I'm not sure when that record was broken, or if it was ever broken. The course closed in the 1990.
Here is Ken Molyneaux and his record holding Norton 650, or as it is known in revered tones with the Westwood crowd, Molyneux's six and a half Norton.

http://www.modernmotorcycling.com/Westw ... /index.htm

Glen

Bernhard · Dec 29, 2012

worntorn said:
No problem Dave, happy to do it.
Rohan, I'm sure that 650 ss bikes did lap the IOM, but I dont have any info on that at present. One bike that scorched around the IOM was a direct ancestor to the 650ss. This was the little 500 twin that Doug Hele prepared, the one that became the first pushrod machine to lap the IOM at over 100mph. Hele used the downdraught head design of that bike for the new 650, that is were much of the extra power came in.
Talking with local Manx owner and former Westwood racer Murray Neibel, he told me that when he ran in classes that included racers on the new 650ss Nortons, he could not hold onto them out of corners. I should add that the two 650 bikes I know of that ran there used the lighter manx featherbed frame. The 650 engine itself is much lighter than a Manx engine.
If a 50 hp Manx couldnt hold on, I can't see a 40 bhp Goldstar having a chance. Glen

In the IOM the 500 would be in their “500 limit “open” race. The 650 would be in the Production race which if my memory serves me correctly was won by a Bonneville until someone called Dunstall came along with an Atlas.
The Manx and 650ss did clash in the mainland open 1000cc races in which Dunstall
Before the Atlas, entered 650ss in various guises with a variety of riders including Dave Degens who kept pippin the horn when overtaking the 500 Manxs at Bands Hatch :!:

The Helne tuned 500 Domiracer was ridden by Aussie Tom Phillips and the engine “lost “ 1000 revs on the last lap.
It would have been intresting to have seen what a Rider like Hailwood could have done with this bike round the IOM.
This 500 under the Dunstall Domiracer Banner won the 500 British Championship ridden by the Late Ray Prickell.

The 650SS

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