Stop damaging your motors with oil shut off valves

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kommando said:
The oil will be subject to centrifugal forces as the crank spins so until the oil is used up then the bearings will be lubricated, once the oil is gone then the damage will start, hence why engines will last a few mins with no new oil depending on the size and shape of the oil galleries.
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It's a great theory. Care to put it to the test & let us know how long it takes at 2,500 rpm to damage the rod bearings?
 
I fitted the full flow kit (I use the Sump-o-matic brand) on mine. The sump fills up in just a few days even with the new oil pump. Have same on the Trident too.
For me it is worth the peace of mind, no matter how specious, that my cam is fully lubed on start up!
 
Schwany said:
I got my Masters at Whatsamatta U.
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I salute Rocky Kanute.
Stop damaging your motors with oil shut off valves
 
Damn near everyone in here is a wrench monkey to some degree, so what is the BFD about taking three minutes, unscrewing a plug and checking overfill in the crankcase?
As alluded to earlier by Acadian and like so many other avenues of social media, I note there are factions that are convinced being right is more important than getting it right.
Run the valve if you "believe" you will never screw up and forget to open it, and mechanical failure will never occur to your automated configuration.

If someone chooses to run the valve don't stand in judgement...that judgement will come sooner or later anyway. If one believes they can beat he influence (forgetfulness) of human nature, by all means put one in.

You don't want to run the valve great...good chance your happy engine status will catch up with you for some other reason. I don't use it because it takes a big dollar screw-up out of the scenario,
engine oil starvation.

And the lack of a check valve gives me another excuse to go crawl around on the shop floor, check the wet sump status and start yet another thread on the issue, and hang out in the shop so I can screw with my bike some more.
 
I was going to start a thread on real world class screw ups I have done but then I realized the first post would be too long.
 
Here's my ultimate solution for clearing out a wet sump. This is one of my old racing cases from when I was experimenting with breathers in the 80s. This is what I settled on after I mounted the first reed valve sump breather. The reed valve worked fine but I also liked the simplicity of a big hose from the sump to the oil tank. Oil was pumped to the oil tank with the reed valve but it was wide open blasted to the oil tank with the 1" ID breather. The idea was to get rid of excess oil that might rob H.P. I was not concerned about creating a vacuum to prevent leaks because the motor was already oil tight. If the sump filled up with oil after being parked for a month between races - oil just blew into the oil tank without any danger of blowing a main seal. The window at the bottom is taller than 1" and runs all the way to the bottom of the sump.

Has anyone else done anything like this on a Norton?

Stop damaging your motors with oil shut off valves


Stop damaging your motors with oil shut off valves


I was desparate for HP because I was running against monoshock Ducatis as is the vid below:

 
Tornado said:
Might want to also put a label on the bike itself as to the no oil state. Say on the clocks or seat, painters tape or a paper tag with a bit of string/wire tie etc. Just makes more sense as a reminder.
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If I drain the oil out of a bike for any reason I put a label on the speedometer. I have a ball valve on my 64 Matchless. On it I have a karabiner hooked to the bars to remind myself to turn on the oil. Sort of like a remove before flight ribbon on an airplane.
 
Matchless said:
It's a great theory. Care to put it to the test & let us know how long it takes at 2,500 rpm to damage the rod bearings?
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It was done loads of times at the Bearing material development laboratory at the factory where I worked, it one of the tests for new bearing materials and also regularly done to confirm old materials were still within parameters and it was minutes not seconds.
 
I recently started up a rather rare 600 Nomad that had stood for some time. I drained the case first. The motor was surprisingly clanky . After use the engine was reasonably quiet. I think its a mistake to fully drain the case . Some oil left in the sump for the crank to pick up and throw around is good for those bone dry pistons .
 
Lineslinger said:
Damn near everyone in here is a wrench monkey to some degree, so what is the BFD about taking three minutes, unscrewing a plug and checking overfill in the crankcase?
As alluded to earlier by Acadian and like so many other avenues of social media, I note there are factions that are convinced being right is more important than getting it right.
Run the valve if you "believe" you will never screw up and forget to open it, and mechanical failure will never occur to your automated configuration.

If someone chooses to run the valve don't stand in judgement...that judgement will come sooner or later anyway. If one believes they can beat he influence (forgetfulness) of human nature, by all means put one in.

You don't want to run the valve great...good chance your happy engine status will catch up with you for some other reason. I don't use it because it takes a big dollar screw-up out of the scenario,
engine oil starvation.

And the lack of a check valve gives me another excuse to go crawl around on the shop floor, check the wet sump status and start yet another thread on the issue, and hang out in the shop so I can screw with my bike some more.
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There are three types of valves, all quite different in risk level.
1. The automatic spring loaded anti-sump valve. This has to be maximum risk and has caused almost all of the engine failures associated with antisump valves.

2. Manual ball valve with no interlock. Also very risky. You will forget eventually.

3. Valve with an ignition cut out. These must be very low risk as there have been thousands fitted and I have yet to read of an engine harmed by one.

So we really are discussing three different things at once.

Im in agreement with the anti-valvers on types 1 and 2.

Glen
 
Lineslinger said:
Damn near everyone in here is a wrench monkey to some degree, so what is the BFD about taking three minutes, unscrewing a plug and checking overfill in the crankcase?
As alluded to earlier by Acadian and like so many other avenues of social media, I note there are factions that are convinced being right is more important than getting it right.
Run the valve if you "believe" you will never screw up and forget to open it, and mechanical failure will never occur to your automated configuration.

If someone chooses to run the valve don't stand in judgement...that judgement will come sooner or later anyway. If one believes they can beat he influence (forgetfulness) of human nature, by all means put one in.

You don't want to run the valve great...good chance your happy engine status will catch up with you for some other reason. I don't use it because it takes a big dollar screw-up out of the scenario,
engine oil starvation.

And the lack of a check valve gives me another excuse to go crawl around on the shop floor, check the wet sump status and start yet another thread on the issue, and hang out in the shop so I can screw with my bike some more.
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I don't know if I've ever managed to do this task in 3 minutes,but I used to complete it it fairly quickly, maybe 10 minutes all in with cleanup.
Rather than just get on and ride, run the bike up on the lift, strap it down, clean the bottom of the engine, particularly around the drain plug, find clean oil container, slide it under, remove plug and drain.
Refit plug ( don't forget this step, folks have and the engine blows up), find funnel, clean funnel, flip seat up and pour oil into oil tank. Seat back down and you are done. I guess with older Commandos one must remove and refit the seat?. I'm lucky there, MK3 seat with hinge.
One day I decided to strain the oil through cheesecloth before dumping it back in.
I was shocked at the small bits of sharp rock and other road debris had fallen into the oil during the drain process.
Now I strain all sump oil before dumping it back in.
The whole process with straining takes me close to half an hour and then there's cleanup. Maybe I don't need to ride that bike today, the sump is full, I'll ride another one instead.

Glen
 
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Matchless said:
The crank might well be full of oil but it is not under pressure, & therefore the damage is going to happen to a plain bearing within a few seconds. The reason these valves were okay for Velocettes is because they have roller bearing big ends, these being tolerant to running with little oil & no pressure.
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Tell Henry Ford that plain big ends need oil under pressure.
 
worntorn said:
I don't know if I've ever managed to do this task in 3 minutes,but I used to complete it it fairly quickly, maybe 10 minutes all in with cleanup.
Rather than just get on and ride, run the bike up on the lift, strap it down, clean the bottom of the engine, particularly around the drain plug, find clean oil container, slide it under, remove plug and drain.
Refit plug ( don't forget this step, folks have and the engine blows up), find funnel, clean funnel, flip seat up and pour oil into oil tank. Seat back down and you are done. I guess with older Commandos one must remove and refit the seat?. I'm lucky there, MK3 seat with hinge.
One day I decided to strain the oil through cheesecloth before dumping it back in.
I was shocked at the small bits of sharp rock and other road debris had fallen into the oil during the drain process.
Now I strain all sump oil before dumping it back in.
The whole process with straining takes me close to half an hour and then there's cleanup. Maybe I don't need to ride that bike today, the sump is full, I'll ride another one instead.

Glen
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Yup and if you bike wet sumps all tank oil within a week or two, you're having to do this operation quite a few times per season. Ignoring it and just starting with most oil in the sump is not wise in my experiences. So either buy a sump breather valve for a few hundred dollars or buy or make up a manual valve with ignition cut out for a few bucks.
 
Mine hangs in there for a month or more, so I put up with it. I have tried starting with full sump a few times. It smoked like Bogart but I got away with it for awhile. Then it blew a crank seal. No fun at all!
Now I just drain that bike for winter, pull the plug wires and stick a note on the speedo.
If I still run it without oil in the Spring, my license needs to go!
Then it's a case of riding it once every two weeks or so, that usually takes care of it.
That's a MK 3 with the semi- functioning built in anti-sump valve

Glen
 
gforce said:
....... I don't know if it's just me, but it feels like this post is just another advert for your stuff........ It's really disappointing behavior.
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I think it's just you gforce... I didn't see anything in the original post that could be construed as an attempt to sell products or items. Nobody utters a peep when Matt of cNw posts a thread about one of his products. Seems Lopsided to me, but maybe I'm wrong. Cj
 
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At this point if you are not happy with someone, don't buy from them. It is all up to the fellow fronting the dosh after all.
These are two custom bits guys, the same can be said for the RGM v AN shops.
Let the market decide. I have bought from all four.
 
Matchless said:
The crank might well be full of oil but it is not under pressure, & therefore the damage is going to happen to a plain bearing within a few seconds. The reason these valves were okay for Velocettes is because they have roller bearing big ends, these being tolerant to running with little oil & no pressure.
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I have seen an oil-less engine run for miles on slippery bearings. It got hot but it didn't blow. We dumb kids figured out from all that horrific rattling we needed to put oil in it and it was none the worse.
If it's going to cook a lot of run time is determined by engine size, design, designation and HP output.
Seconds? Maybe on a top fuel drag racing engine.



Triton Thrasher said:
Tell Henry Ford that plain big ends need oil under pressure.
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A new block design was cast with improved oiling channels to the big ends and mains.
It was called the 427 Side Oiler. Designed specifically for Nascar use in the mid 60's.
The gearheads found it in a big hurry.

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Just because an engine didn't seize tight from lack of oil doesn't mean some damage wasn't done.

Now that JC has more than likely exited for good I guess these threads will be the new normal....Damn shame.
 
You can buy the reed valve sump breather from Jim Comstock or Kenny Cummings or from anyone you want who will make one. You can get the Orings from the "O ring store" (1/16" cross section x 1-1/16" ID) or from your local parts supplier. You can get the micro switch from the people who supply them.

I don't care who supplies the parts. I just don't want people to forget to turn on their oil shut off valves.

Please keep this discussion technical minded as it was intended to be without getting sidetracked into emotional dead ends.

Remember that I started this post because someone just told me they forgot to turn on their oil valve and ran it out of oil.
 
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