Simplicity of Commando vs Other Brit Bikes? (2017)

F451 · Feb 17, 2017

ashman said:
Eddie if you can keep the Triumph as its a beautyfull bike and you will regret it down the road if you sold it as I did when I sold my 81 Thunderbird, it was one of best and most relieable bike I have ever owned, but my Norton is the same, if you can keep your Triumph and get a Norton as well, go for it, my 81 650 Thunderbird was such a smooth Triumph to ride I did a lot of miles on that bike in the 9 years of onwership and it loved long trips even 2 up, be greedy and have more than one British bike, even if you can't justafide in owning more than one.
My wife and I had a understanding when we got hiched, she had no say in what bikes I had or wanted and if anything happened the bikes stayed, she agreed, she didn't even know I brought a new Triumph till the day I had her drive me to pick it up, she puts up with a lot but I had bikes long before she came along.

Ashley

Thanks Ashley and everyone else for the continued comments, I really appreciate it!

Regarding keeping the Triumph, I would really like to, but I've been in vehicle overload for some time now and need to pare it down, that's why I didn't jump on that Commando that I was hand-wringing over recently, just didn't want to add another vehicle to maintain when I'm struggling, failing actually, to use and maintain the ones I already have.

My current stable is:
'73 Triumph T140
'06 Husqvarna WR125 (with a 165 kit, I LOVE this red headed step child!)
'05 Beta 525 RR (currently getting a freshening up front to back, rebuilding the rear wheel is next, my first time on that task)

'03 Suzuki DRZ 125 L (this one will be going this spring as the kids don't ride it)
'03 Yamaha TTR 90 (kids bike, same deal, its days are numbered)

Plus my stalled 928 project (determined to get it back on the road this spring or sell it as is - God forbid).

Plus our daily drivers which I do some of the easy maint on now and then.

I think you guys would understand why I'm planning on selling the Triumph and replacing it with a Norton. Now, if I can complete the Great Boyd Family Declutter of 2017 on schedule, I may actually have room for another vintage bike and can look into getting another Triumph. I'm actually very interested in the T100 500 twin, I've heard great things about them and they seem like a relative bargain, Lol.

Anyway, thanks again guys, I'm enjoying all the comments and learning a bunch. -Eddie

Fast Eddie · Feb 17, 2017

Eddie, T100s are nice, but if you've had a T140, a T100 will feel pretty gutless ...

F451 · Feb 17, 2017

Fast Eddie said:
Eddie, T100s are nice, but if you've had a T140, a T100 will feel pretty gutless ...

Yes, I imagine it would. I'll definitely have to ride one before I decide. I'm not too concerned with gutless as long as it can cruise the secondary roads.

People have been telling me for years a 125 2 stroke dirt bike would be a bad idea for someone my size, 6'6", 210 lbs. I finally got one and I love it, so sometimes less is more, at least I've found that to be true for me. Realistically a T100 purchase is way off in the distance so I don't have to worry about it, thank goodness.

RoadScholar · Feb 17, 2017

F 451, interesting moniker; do you read them or do you burn them???

I love almost all British motorcycles. My first motorcycle was a Zundapp 250 Super Saber, it was a pit type bike that I acquired in 1962 from a cook at the boarding school I attended in Millbrook (Amenia) New York, it lead quickly to a 1937 Indian Chief which lead to a 500CC BSA single carb A-50 where I fell in love with British twins.

I rode a friends 1967 T120 and had to have a new Bonneville and took a loan out against my Volkswagen for a 1970 T120R, that turned into a 1969 T150 triple. Which I raced (1971) with a Colin/Sealy chassis for one year in the AAMRA in New England and at Bridgehampton, NY

I worked at a Honda dealership and purchased a CB 500, but it really had no guts. I traded that for a 1970 Commando. WOW! I was hooked. Power, speed and better handling than the Hondas.

I retired from Hi-tech about 7 years ago and have been working on British motorcycles ever since (going back to 1970). The Norton is a very handsome example of the British twin and with the Isolastic system you can't find a smoother motorcycle. I have done many Brit singles and twins, but I encourage you to get in the game as soon as possible before the price of admission gets too high. The Norton is the poor mans Vincent, paint it black with gold striping and the general public, almost, can't see the difference...

Interesting question: Who are the next Norton aficionados?

cjandme · Feb 18, 2017

RoadScholar said:
...Interesting question: Who are the next Norton aficionados?

That is the 64,000 dollar question

F451 · Feb 18, 2017

RoadScholar said:
F 451, interesting moniker; do you read them or do you burn them???

Ha ha, RoadS, good call. Definitely read them (and hoard them). Montag is the man, Lol.

RoadScholar said:
I encourage you to get in the game as soon as possible before the price of admission gets too high.

Absolutely. I think they are starting to demand much higher prices already. I've done ok over the years with my bike and car purchases, definitely don't consider them "investments" at my level, although they are investments in enjoyment if that makes sense. And I hit the 928 market perfectly. When I got into them they were definitely niche, hardly any interest besides the hard core masochists that enjoyed them. Just the past year or two everyone else seems to have woken up to them. They really are an amazing car considering they were designed mid 70's. Nice examples almost look like they could have come off the production line this year, IMO.

My old '85 (since replaced with the '88):

Simplicity of Commando vs Other Brit Bikes? (2017)

RoadScholar said:
Interesting question: Who are the next Norton aficionados?

Good question. Besides semi old fogies like myself, and the already involved old fogies, and maybe some hipsters, who I'm not convinced are in it for the long run, I'm not sure who will be coming into the fold going forward. Seems young people are not as car and moto crazy as the youth past. Can't say I blame them, seems like a lot of the fun of cars and motorcycles has been regulated away, not to mention all the other toys they have nowadays. Oh well, more Norton's available for me then I guess, ha ha. -Eddie

WZ507 · Feb 19, 2017

Fast Eddie said:
worntorn said:

So is the Spitfire profile used on your t140 the same as the Spitfire profile used on my 1963 BSA Super Rocket?
I recall reading somewhere that it is the BSA profile.

Glen

Click to expand...

I believe it is Glen. But I think the different rocker arm ratios make it behave differently in the different engines. A Spitfire profile in a Triumph is pretty radical really.

Aren't they all essentially the same rocker ratio in the 1.10-1.15 range?

Hobot · Feb 19, 2017

1. Norton front disc brake wheel lacing

2. Commando clutch retaining nut, not so loose to work off nor so tight it inverts thin circlip it seats on

3. Primary chain set cold slack enough not to bend shafts once heat expanded nor flap-slap inner case silly

4. Fitting belt primary on wobbling clutch d/t nil lube flow to lay shaft bushes when not running in 4th

5. Push rods puzzling back into head after frustrating contest to remove em w/o grinding ends of rockers nearly off

6. Tedious diddles & dead end efforts on isolastics d/t vibrations like ordinary Brit Iron cycles - going by feel, by fess and by golly or accessing shape and orientation of heatlight blurs in R or L or both mirrors check list

7. Drifting L cruising straights trial error efforts

8. Solving upsetting out the blue weavey/wobbles/hinging

9. Finding resolving porous to fractured Norton heads.

10. Solving Spragthrope Cycles designed 850 E-start sprag gear

Fast Eddie · Feb 19, 2017

WZ507 said:
Fast Eddie said:

worntorn said:

So is the Spitfire profile used on your t140 the same as the Spitfire profile used on my 1963 BSA Super Rocket?
I recall reading somewhere that it is the BSA profile.

Glen

Click to expand...

I believe it is Glen. But I think the different rocker arm ratios make it behave differently in the different engines. A Spitfire profile in a Triumph is pretty radical really.

Click to expand...

Aren't they all essentially the same rocker ratio in the 1.10-1.15 range?

I don't know, I was assuming there 'may' be differences but I don't really know.

worntorn · Feb 19, 2017

BSA made quite a fuss about that cam when it arrived with the Super Rocket in 61. They refer to it as "Full Race!!" My high compression Late West Coast Super Rocket has that cam and it is more of a stump puller than anything like "full race"

I understand that Doug Hele used it on Triumph race bikes with great success.
Weird!
But there I go getting off topic again.
I'll bring it back on.
Commando is king, forget the rest!

Glen

lwmcd1 · Feb 19, 2017

` I don't know about it being any easier. In some ways it is in some it's not.
The Norton clutch for example in my humble opinion is better than say Triumph's.
The quick release buffered rear wheel is nice. And the suspension isolastics are an improvement but I wouldn't call them actually easy to work on. As far as I am concerned any of the British twins are pretty simple and straight forward.

acotrel · Feb 19, 2017

When has a 'full race' cam ever been fitted to a commando - who would want to ride a bike with nothing under 4,000RPM and a bottom end which won't cop more than 7,000 RPM ? You have lost 1000RPM off the top for starters. With my own bike, it has always been about TORQUE (midrange power). What use is a commando if you have to rev the tits off it to get going "? A Triumph 650 with E3134 cams is a totally different kind of bike. My friend has tried a lot of different cams in his Tri 650, however has returned to the old stand-by - the race kit cams from 1953.

ILLF8ED · Feb 20, 2017

F451 said:
I've always wanted a vintage British twin and finally pulled the trigger last year at 56 yrs old as my body is starting to fall apart and I was worried it would not be long before I could not start one, much less ride it.

I turned 64 yesterday. When I joined the NCNOC in 1981 I was one of the youngest members and I like telling people I still am one of the youngest. We have members in late 70s to early 80s still kick starting their Commandos. You have time to enjoy these machines.

F451 · Feb 20, 2017

illf8ed said:
F451 said:

I've always wanted a vintage British twin and finally pulled the trigger last year at 56 yrs old as my body is starting to fall apart and I was worried it would not be long before I could not start one, much less ride it.

I turned 64 yesterday. When I joined the NCNOC in 1981 I was one of the youngest members and I like telling people I still am one of the youngest. We have members in late 70s to early 80s still kick starting their Commandos. You have time to enjoy these machines.

Click to expand...

Ha ha, thank you for the kind words David! And everyone else for the interesting and encouraging comments. I am planning on riding until I can't ride anymore. When that happens, I'll settle for wrenching on them. If the day comes when I can't do that, I'll go hang in the garage and yell at the neighborhood kids. Or something like that.

I bought the Triumph from an older gentleman in his 70's, riding the Triumph was too much for him but he was keeping his gigantic Harley with its lecky start(?). I sort of felt bad buying the Triumph from him but I managed to pass his sniff test on whether or not I would be a good steward of it, so I'm trying my best to keep it to his standards.

And here's a crappy video of Don from my dirt bike club, 70 years old airing out his CRF250F. Holy cow, he cracks me up.

[video]https://youtu.be/sg6EfccJSS0[/video]

Norton content: I'm studying and perusing all the usual sites although I don't really have the budget handy to jump on one without causing a stink with the SO. I just love them, can't wait to get one and cruise my local twisties. -Eddie

B+Bogus · Feb 24, 2017

Fast Eddie said:
Andy, does the 10.5:1 / spitfire cam combo run OK on pump fuel? Do you use high octane? It sounds like a real blast!

Been away from the computer for a week - not always a bad thing...

I'm running the Triumph on V-Power and although I haven't given it a proper spanking on a hot day it's been fine so far. It's running an old Boyer set to the standard timing marks, so there may yet be more scope to play with the timing.
I ran a not-too dissimilar setup back in the early '80s, but with an Anglo Bike (remember them?) half-race exhaust cam and their raucous meggas. It used to pink occasionally on 4-star leaded fuel but only at low revs.

The Spitfire exhaust cam is the same profile as the standard inlet cam, so not overly radical. I'm also using inlet followers on the exhaust as they're a bigger radius.

I'd always been led to believe that tuning the motor to this extent would lead to erratic running and poor idling, but it hasn't been the case at all. It's really tractable and no hint of 'on the cam/off the cam' behaviour.

The Norton clutch is certainly superior to the standard Triumph one, not to mention the dubious morse taper & Woodruff key mainshaft (what were they thinking!?). I changed the plates to the currently available 'non-slip' setup with an additional friction plate, and with an SRM alloy pressure plate it's pretty good, and although not as light as the Norton. I could never get neutral at a standstill with the crappy pressed steel original pressure plate, and that was after buying the flattest one I could find at the local shop - they were all wobbly from new :roll:

Fast Eddie · Feb 25, 2017

That sounds great Andy. It even gets me thinking about Triumphs again!

I disagree a little on the cam, I'd say the Spitfire is quite radical in the Triumph world. It has much more lift and MUCH more duration than a 3134 for example. If (and only if) I recall correctly, the Spitfire cam and standard follower combo is essentially the same as the Nourish Z cam and gives the same effect as the factory Thruxton cams (those with the big followers), but I may be a little hazy here.

The main point is that I totally agree with you re it being a great cam for Triumphs especially with high CR. I think it's obvious that the extra duration and increased CR go well together here.

I used to run Spitfires on both cams with offset buttons on the inlets to increase lift, a bit of a botch perhaps, but it worked! I tried both std and R type followers but didn't really notice any difference.

I don't know if you bothered to look at it Andy, but with a T140 head you can actually get some squish as the head and Pistons have a matching angled portion. Squish is also supposed to help prevent detonation etc. But with alloy rods etc I wouldn't set the squish at much less than .040" on aTriumph that I was gonna rev hard.

All in all, the Spitfire cam / high CR combo is relatively cheap and easy way of getting a fast and exciting Triumph that, as you say, is also well mannered.

I need to snap out of this before I go and buy a T140 project off eBay...!

B+Bogus · Feb 25, 2017

Fast Eddie said:
That sounds great Andy. It even gets me thinking about Triumphs again!
....
I need to snap out of this before I go and buy a T140 project off eBay...!

I know what you mean!

I do like it as a back lane/street bike, but the furthest I've bee on mine in recent history is the Lake District, where it was really in its element

Back to the cams: Yes, I suppose the T140 inlet cam is pretty radical by the 'standard' metrics, especially as the 3134 (std T140 exhaust cam?) was considered to be a racing cam back in the '60s.
Perhaps it just serves to emphasise the conservative state of tune of most Brits when compared to the Jap contemporaries?
Designed for Pool Petrol, probably :?

Interesting comments on squish: I deliberately fitted a thick copper head gasket and I'm confident I could go to a third of the thickness, but elected to build in some safety margin against pinking.
I've contemplated putting it on the track, but I'd get some Avgas first!

Peter Morland · Jan 29, 2019

I have a friend who, in the late 60’s, rode his Commando from Panama up the Pan American highway to the states along with a buddy who rode a Triumph twin. He said he experienced a couple of problems with his Norton but the Triumph was more troublesome.

acotrel · Jan 29, 2019

One of the biggest mistakes I made when I was a kid, was selling my old bike to buy the next one. I sold an excellent 650cc Tribsa to buy my short stroke 500cc Triton. The Tribsa would have been better on a race track than the Triton. It had a BSA Gold Flash frame with 63 model Triumph fork yokes - handled beautifully, and had a very fast reliable 650cc Triumph motor. At least it would not have tried to kill me - like the other bastard. If you are going to start road racing, don't start with a converted road bike or something which is brewed-up. I don't know how I survived my childhood.

acotrel · Jan 29, 2019

Triumphs have more oil leaks and they are slower. But a 1963 unit construction Bonneville is very hard to beat. They handle almost as good as a Manx.

Simplicity of Commando vs Other Brit Bikes? (2017)

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