Sabotage
- Thread starter namibchris
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I am inclined to agree with LAB that the Boyer ignition wires may be switched around, this will give a fat spark but at the wrong time. Just as a rough and ready check, take out the plugs and use a wooden pencil to see whether the pistons are near TDC and that the rotor marks on the alternator and the red dot on the boyer are at least approximately in the correct place. If the alternator rotor woodruff key is absent the rotor itself could be in any position.
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It is not really good to be claiming that a dead guy sabotaged your bike. If I get anything plated, machined or welded, I always use someone reliable whom I've used previously and know their capability and billing habits. I don't ever let anyone other than myself put a spanner on my bike. What do you personally take responsibility for ?
I really liked the photos of the CNW café racer, however unless I built that myself I would not own it. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you own an old commando ?
I really liked the photos of the CNW café racer, however unless I built that myself I would not own it. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you own an old commando ?
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My money is on a completely mis-timed spark.
I once had similar symptoms when I had forgotten to tighten the Boyer rotor to the cam. It was spinning on the cam and giving me an occasional missfire when it happened to spark when the exhaust valve was open.
Also as suggested above, check that the timing mark on the alternator rotor are actually correct, that the rotor hasn't been put on without it woodruff key and is in a random position on the crank.
I once had similar symptoms when I had forgotten to tighten the Boyer rotor to the cam. It was spinning on the cam and giving me an occasional missfire when it happened to spark when the exhaust valve was open.
Also as suggested above, check that the timing mark on the alternator rotor are actually correct, that the rotor hasn't been put on without it woodruff key and is in a random position on the crank.
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acotrel said:
If I'd just had a bike completely restored ( some people don't have the time or skills to do it themselves) and found the ignition wire insulation shaved off ( they don't come like that from Boyer ) and touching the cases, I'd accuse him of sabotage too.
As for using someone you've used before, suppose you've never had a bike restored before? I'd hazard a guess that british bike restorers in Namibia are hard to find. He's not living in Birmingham.
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Check the valves. Grossly misadjusted valves can give exactly your symptom of a bike that wants to start but can't quite get there. Pull the plugs and follow the procedure in the manual. Don't overthink it (I'm speaking from experience here), just follow the manual. Takes 15 minutes or so. Going a bit deeper, pop the timing cover off and confirm that the timing chain indices line up, again in the manual.
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Likely just systemic corrections as listed. But would like some perspective on how much the invoice was for what was alleged done. Sugar in gas takes a bit of time to show up dozens to hundreds of miles depending on how much dumped in of course. Rings/bores suffer most, then valve guides then cam and lifter surfaces and eventually rod shells while running rougher and rougher till over heating and too rough-weak to use. Norton factory workers did a number on some Commandos too.
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If the bike as stood over 12 months...it could [proberly is] the fuel going off....just had this problem...clean the carb jets and put in new gas.
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boyer fires both plugs at same time. mine is set in series and does thisdaveparry said:
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htown16 said:
I know it was dangerous, but we were moving at a crawl and I was truly desperate.......
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pommie john said:
Amen to that. I had this fantasy of my youth, when I was riding a Yamaha RD350 cafe while the cool guys were riding Brit, ringdingdingdingdingding just didn't have the appeal as thump thump thump, now 40 years later when I have a little extra cash I wanted a bike for sunny Sunday afternoons and the occasional rally. But I must say the temptation to turn it into a 70's Beamer is pretty strong at the moment.
As for responsibility I am of course responsible for it all.
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john robert bould said:
all new fluids, new jets, bike not standing with fuel.
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Well, Thats ruled that out! time to look at the sparks?
I would think any one has the right to own a Norton for what ever reason they like. I get a little tired of these comments from these self appointented Norton chiefs who decree you must do ever thing you're self and if not capable, then you are not worthy of owning a Norton. I bought my mk3 850 fully restored, and enjoy just riding it, I am capable to do the work but got tired of it when I was young. Maybe down the track I will get the urge do a full resto, but at this stage I don't have the time, BIG DEAL. Go for it Namibcris, sounds likely electrical and I am sure you will eliminate the prob soon. Enjoy you're dreams and the Norton, don't let forum bullies dictate where you are going.
trident sam
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Have you done a compression test ? verified that the head has been tightened down properly ?
Once the spectre of foul play raises its ugly head, if it were mine, I'd want to be sure there are no other hidden delights.
Stuff like clear oil ways, clean bearings and the like. I know these won't prevent it from starting - but could that be a blessing in disguise?
As far as the non starting, have any of the markings been verified? Spending time adjusting cam and ignition to incorrect marks won't get the thing going.
Hope you get it sorted.
Stuff like clear oil ways, clean bearings and the like. I know these won't prevent it from starting - but could that be a blessing in disguise?
As far as the non starting, have any of the markings been verified? Spending time adjusting cam and ignition to incorrect marks won't get the thing going.
Hope you get it sorted.
Two things I was wondering about in original post. You mentioned new capacitors. If you mean those that are used (condensers) along with breaker point ignition, they are not used at all with electronic ignition and should not be wired to anything. Other thing is did the gentleman who worked on your bike install the Boyer or was that the ignition the bike had when it became yours? I know you said timing was repeatedly checked but be sure the trigger plate was installed correctly. For the Commando (counter-clockwise rotation of the rotor) the two little coils on the plate should approximately be at 1 and 7 o'clock with two drilled holes inboard of the 7 o'clock hole. Static timing should be carried out using the hole at the left of the 7 o'clock coil.
Chris, persevere old chap you are our only representative in Namibia. If you do the pencil down the plughole test to ascertain approximate TDC, take off the rocker covers and make sure that both the inlet and exhaust valve on one cylinder are both slightly open, also put your finger over a plug hole and see whether on kicking it you sense both suction and then compression. If the cam shaft woodruff key has been removed you may observe perfect lining up of the marks in the timing side but the cam timing may be out. If the timing is not 100% accurate you will still get some indication of combustion going on in the cylinders. it will run - although not particularly well - even quite a long way out on the ignition timing. Start from first principles and do one thing at a time.
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Purchasing a basket case norton and paying for a rebuild will still cost you less than buying a brand new "british style" bike, or heaven forbid you reverse mortgage your house to buy a 961SE. Could be of questionable reliability compared to a Hinckley lump or a newish UJM, but for a casual ride I doubt it's of concern to most. Would you rather pay $9k for a vintage inspired new bike or 9k on a rebuilt original that can actually almost hold value? :wink:
Nothing wrong with paying for restoration work. As someone who messes around with this stuff I'll definitely question ownership if you can't remove a seat, etc..., but if you're uncomfortable delving into engine work and gearbox work, I do not even begin to fault you, considering how quickly tools and parts add up (especially if you're changing them based on advice from internet mechanics, etc...). Have seen more than a few people take a perfectly running bike, rip it apart, buy a whole bunch of stuff they don't need, and put it back together only to be disappointed with the result.
As for the problems here, I think you should treat this like I treat any old bike that I get in that's in unknown condition. Test for symptoms, not causes.
> Check that you actually are getting the right spark at the right time. Plug gap, plug type, wire type, etc... all affect that. I would borrow a stock system as a "once shorted at the coil trigger boyer" may not function in a predictable way. Once it's running, start causing the problems one at a time
> Lots of things such as valve adjustment and timing can cause the bike to barely have compression. Check those, but also check compression as it's a simple test of ring sealing, piston issues, valve issues, etc.
> Make sure that the pilot jet on the carb is actually right and clear. I usually get the pilot jet size and pick up a guitar string of the same size to probe it. Can scratch the jet passageway if done wrong but at least it'll tell you if the hole is the right size. Even if it seems open by eye, you'll find mik's are finicky about slightly plugged jets (with how small the pilot ones are).
Nothing wrong with paying for restoration work. As someone who messes around with this stuff I'll definitely question ownership if you can't remove a seat, etc..., but if you're uncomfortable delving into engine work and gearbox work, I do not even begin to fault you, considering how quickly tools and parts add up (especially if you're changing them based on advice from internet mechanics, etc...). Have seen more than a few people take a perfectly running bike, rip it apart, buy a whole bunch of stuff they don't need, and put it back together only to be disappointed with the result.
As for the problems here, I think you should treat this like I treat any old bike that I get in that's in unknown condition. Test for symptoms, not causes.
> Check that you actually are getting the right spark at the right time. Plug gap, plug type, wire type, etc... all affect that. I would borrow a stock system as a "once shorted at the coil trigger boyer" may not function in a predictable way. Once it's running, start causing the problems one at a time
> Lots of things such as valve adjustment and timing can cause the bike to barely have compression. Check those, but also check compression as it's a simple test of ring sealing, piston issues, valve issues, etc.
> Make sure that the pilot jet on the carb is actually right and clear. I usually get the pilot jet size and pick up a guitar string of the same size to probe it. Can scratch the jet passageway if done wrong but at least it'll tell you if the hole is the right size. Even if it seems open by eye, you'll find mik's are finicky about slightly plugged jets (with how small the pilot ones are).
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Besides the contact breaker condensors not used with electronic ign. neither is the Ballast Resister so 12V power to ign. should bypass it and can be eliminated too.
1. Set valve lash, per standard cam. ~.006" INT. / ~.008" EXT.
2. Check adequate compression by kicker resistance, if takes some effort then seals enough to run well enough.
3. With rocker covers off turn engine until one side's valves are open and the other closed, used closed valve side to time ignition near TDC.
4. Mark alternator rotor raised casting that is closest to top to correspond to closed valve/TDC firing piston #1. Traditionally the LH side but don't matter on dual fire wasted spark ign. Can use solder or a twig held fixed in plug hole to have piston just touch it from one direction then reverse and touch it from other direction, temp mark rotor at each point then split the difference to get adequate TDC for starting. Note plugs holes are set at angle to piston bore so puts a sideways load on probes and can snap off rather than push out plug hole.
5. Put degree wheel on crank shaft or use protractor to mark ~30' BTDC on rotor if factory dial gauge gone of knocked askew.
6. Diddle boyah trigger plate so plugs snap close to the 30' mark as engine turned in right direction.
7. New spark plugs, buy a V8 pack as for some reason some plugs tend to foul permanently after just a few mis fires farting on hard to start Cdo's. Had this happen after everything working right but before I shot my Combat to death I tired the old plugs out of trash before pulling trigger.
8. Stick a tiny wire in the pilot jet air screw hole to make sure its open enough to start. Plenty of posts on what wire or drill size to get proper sized bleed hole. Blocked pilot will mess with starting and slow idle.
9. Can get sense of adequate float height by holding ticklers down to see they don't flood out immediately but take 5 - 8 sec to drip, which is just traditionally satisfying to see but over flowing beyond need to start with a closed throttle on 1st kick.
10. Crack throttle on next kick and WOT on 3rd if not already running. Repeat this closed throttle, barely cracked throttle to WOT attempt sequence a few times just to make sure it wasn't a fluke it didn't fire off on 1st kick.
11. If not running well enough to diddle the trigger plate timing to optimal easy start w/o back fire then must go though the meaner lists of things like mounting fault of cam in trigger plate, interference or too much space of magnets past trigger coils, broken trigger leads just from looking and handling them, water in fuel or intermittent short tail light ground strap to headlight shell area and others already listed.
4.
1. Set valve lash, per standard cam. ~.006" INT. / ~.008" EXT.
2. Check adequate compression by kicker resistance, if takes some effort then seals enough to run well enough.
3. With rocker covers off turn engine until one side's valves are open and the other closed, used closed valve side to time ignition near TDC.
4. Mark alternator rotor raised casting that is closest to top to correspond to closed valve/TDC firing piston #1. Traditionally the LH side but don't matter on dual fire wasted spark ign. Can use solder or a twig held fixed in plug hole to have piston just touch it from one direction then reverse and touch it from other direction, temp mark rotor at each point then split the difference to get adequate TDC for starting. Note plugs holes are set at angle to piston bore so puts a sideways load on probes and can snap off rather than push out plug hole.
5. Put degree wheel on crank shaft or use protractor to mark ~30' BTDC on rotor if factory dial gauge gone of knocked askew.
6. Diddle boyah trigger plate so plugs snap close to the 30' mark as engine turned in right direction.
7. New spark plugs, buy a V8 pack as for some reason some plugs tend to foul permanently after just a few mis fires farting on hard to start Cdo's. Had this happen after everything working right but before I shot my Combat to death I tired the old plugs out of trash before pulling trigger.
8. Stick a tiny wire in the pilot jet air screw hole to make sure its open enough to start. Plenty of posts on what wire or drill size to get proper sized bleed hole. Blocked pilot will mess with starting and slow idle.
9. Can get sense of adequate float height by holding ticklers down to see they don't flood out immediately but take 5 - 8 sec to drip, which is just traditionally satisfying to see but over flowing beyond need to start with a closed throttle on 1st kick.
10. Crack throttle on next kick and WOT on 3rd if not already running. Repeat this closed throttle, barely cracked throttle to WOT attempt sequence a few times just to make sure it wasn't a fluke it didn't fire off on 1st kick.
11. If not running well enough to diddle the trigger plate timing to optimal easy start w/o back fire then must go though the meaner lists of things like mounting fault of cam in trigger plate, interference or too much space of magnets past trigger coils, broken trigger leads just from looking and handling them, water in fuel or intermittent short tail light ground strap to headlight shell area and others already listed.
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