Rebuild 1st startup issue

Status
Not open for further replies.
To Oldmike, yes I have a suitable hill near the house. Considered it, but my 69 yr old body didn't like the idea of pushing it back up the hill if it didn't work:).

Thats where mates come in.. well I opted for pazon smartfire... it has a rev limiter and various trick options. Appealing too is that it uses low impedence coil which gives an excellent spark. The build quality is excellent. In practice , it means that the bike is easy to start off the centre stand when cold . What you do not want is hard starting especially if it cuts out in traffic.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks. Understand PA position tracking mechanism & Boyer operation. Frankly, I am leaning towards replacing and going back to a magnetic p/u like Boyer. The newer "tri-spark" type optical p/u electronic units really seemed like a move forward. I especially liked the rev limit feature. :).
The PA also has a rev limit feature. Plus two programmable advance curves to choose from if you incorporate a small switch. I think it was Kenny Cummings who told me that the rev limiter is also programmable but told me bluntly "If your constantly banging off the rev limiter on the Norton while street riding then you should be on the track.o_O
But what ever floats your boat. Keep on keep'n on.
Cheers,
Thomas
 
The PA also has a rev limit feature. Plus two programmable advance curves to choose from if you incorporate a small switch. I think it was Kenny Cummings who told me that the rev limiter is also programmable but told me bluntly "If your constantly banging off the rev limiter on the Norton while street riding then you should be on the track.o_O
But what ever floats your boat. Keep on keep'n on.
Cheers,
Thomas
Agreed on banging on limiter street riding. Safety stop at 7k only in event son or someone else (used to riding contemporary bikes) rides bike. With std cam engine is pooped out at 7k. With hotter PW3ish cam it will easily rev too high if not minded... My 2015 Mustang GT (pp2) has rev limiter. If you are banging off it driving on the street you are likely in jail or dead. Don't use it but glad it is there. Same reason.

Irrelevant at this point. The limiter is set at zero. Tried reducing plug gap per Jim C recommendation and spraying starting ether and squirting a little gas in before kicking. No reaction. I see a new Boyer in bike's future. Prior Boyer lasted 30 years. Judgement on carbs is pending until this is fixed.

Dave
 
Agreed on banging on limiter street riding. Safety stop at 7k only in event son or someone else (used to riding contemporary bikes) rides bike. With std cam engine is pooped out at 7k. With hotter PW3ish cam it will easily rev too high if not minded... My 2015 Mustang GT (pp2) has rev limiter. If you are banging off it driving on the street you are likely in jail or dead. Don't use it but glad it is there. Same reason.

Irrelevant at this point. The limiter is set at zero. Tried reducing plug gap per Jim C recommendation and spraying starting ether and squirting a little gas in before kicking. No reaction. I see a new Boyer in bike's future. Prior Boyer lasted 30 years. Judgement on carbs is pending until this is fixed.

Dave

Dave,

YOU SAID: "The limiter is set at zero" ???

I don’t follow? Or meaning Kaput not workingo_O The rev limiter for a street bike PA ignition should be set to 6800 RPM.

Are you using the plugs and the HT leads that came with the kit?

How much end float is on your cam? The PA needs more tighter end float for it to read with the encoder.
Things to check.
Cheers,
Thomas
 
Last edited:
Dave,

YOU SAID: "The limiter is set at zero" ???

I don’t follow? Or meaning Kaput not workingo_O The rev limiter for a street bike PA ignition should be set to 6800 RPM.

Are you using the plugs and the HT leads that came with the kit?

How much end float is on your cam? The PA needs more tighter end float for it to read with the encoder.
Things to check.
Cheers,
Thomas
Gallows humor regarding zero. Ignition ain’t working so that is the effective “setting”. I purchased, and installed the whole kit. End float is irrelevant when all you are doing is kicking.
 
Dave,

YOU SAID: "The limiter is set at zero" ???

I don’t follow? Or meaning Kaput not workingo_O The rev limiter for a street bike PA ignition should be set to 6800 RPM.

Are you using the plugs and the HT leads that came with the kit?

How much end float is on your cam? The PA needs more tighter end float for it to read with the encoder.
Things to check.
Cheers,
Thomas
Not strictly relevant to this but my mate had a mk3 commando with a Boyer fitted that was re built but wouldn't run
It turned out to be end float on the cam either the end float bush missing or something, really can't remember
But the relucter was too far away from the pickup, it would spark statically but not when turned over!!!
It's a shame you don't have any original parts to re fit to find where your problem is
Cheers
 
Dave...
I was going to suggest a shot of ether or quick start. Did not because if there is a spark whilst inlet valve is open then you will have a fire not a back fire. Happily this did not happen so either there is no sprk or engine is firing when the exhaust valve is open.. Are you certain thevalve timing is correct.?
 
I know on Sparx ignitions, you can try reversing the leads to the rotor and that will often cure "won't start" issues on a new install or re-fit after removing timing cover. Not sure if that's an option to try with the PA...
 
Dave...
I was going to suggest a shot of ether or quick start. Did not because if there is a spark whilst inlet valve is open then you will have a fire not a back fire. Happily this did not happen so either there is no sprk or engine is firing when the exhaust valve is open.. Are you certain thevalve timing is correct.?
Yes. 10 pin std separation on (new) timing chain. Checked with degree wheel/dial indicator. 3 degrees advanced at .040" opening spec. Discussed with Johnson Cams. Agreed close enough for street and will bring cam on at slightly lower rev. I did try ether and gas feed to intake prior to kick. No Joy. MkIV Boyer in the mail. Dave
 
Update:
Removed PA ignition and installed Boyer Mk4. Initially had same problem with kickback. Found intermittent broken wire on ground circuit. When fixed, engine started in a few kicks. I had checked all circuits with ohm meter several times previously so I don’t know if the break occurred during ignition changeout or if it existed undetected prior to change. I plan to use Boyer for break-in for now. I will re-install PA when I get a chance to see if it works with replaced wire. I did run +/- wires direct from battery to PA ignition at one point without performance change, so I dunno.

Engine ran pretty well (at 3000 rpm, 5-10 minutes no load... for cam run-in) given no tuning of PWK carbs other than jets and needle positions Jim Schmidt set prior to shipment. And they were not obstructing startup.

Thanks to everybody for comments and recommendations.

Dave
 
Last edited:
Power Arc ignitions have a little optical slot closer to the center of the optical disk which restarts the count on each revolution. That slot is to be set at Top Dead Center and not by the timing marks on the rotor. This is the only detail that I don't think got mentioned in this thread.
 
Update:
Removed PA ignition and installed Boyer Mk4. Initially had same problem with kickback. Found intermittent broken wire on ground circuit. When fixed, engine started in a few kicks. I had checked all circuits with ohm meter several times previously so I don’t know if the break occurred during ignition changeout or if it existed undetected prior to change. I plan to use Boyer for break-in for now. I will re-install PA when I get a chance to see if it works with replaced wire. I did run +/- wires direct from battery to PA ignition at one point without performance change, so I dunno.

Engine ran pretty well (at 3000 rpm, 5-10 minutes no load... for cam run-in) given no tuning of PWK carbs other than jets and needle positions Jim Schmidt set prior to shipment. And they were not obstructing startup.

Thanks to everybody for comments and recommendations.

Dave

Curious, you say cam run in, but how much engine turnover have you applied to the bike in your efforts to sort the ignition problem? Did you ensure enough oil was getting to your new cam in this time?

Not trying to be facetious, but as I'll be breaking a new motor in soon I've been reading up on cam run in, and manufacturer directions to NOT unnecessarily turn over assembled engine. Just wondering how you reconciled this.
 
Looks like a bad ground and you fixed it. Vibration and corrosion and electricity all factors.
BTW the Boyer demands a good dedicated ground or the trigger diode may eventually fail.
 
Coated cam with assembly lube during assembly and poured oil into valve openings several times when kicking it over (thinking it might start). Still, as you infer, a less than optimum situation.

I also coated the cam with KG Industries Gear Kote before assembly (thin dry film lube using moly - requires sand blast prep and small spray gun (I use Harbor Freight for blast and spray - although they do now offer Gear Kote in rattle cans) and one hour bake at 300 degrees and an understanding wife). I debated doing this and my research only found one cam supplier who mentioned it (positively) and found no one who warned not to do it. My concern was that it might interfere with (extend?) the initial bedding in and work hardening of the cam lobes. On the other hand, it seemed that the coating of the lobe peaks would be short lived at best, and I decided that the coating would be more + than -.

I have used this product on other engine, gearbox and other internal "working" components that could use added lubrication protection (piston skirts, gears, valve springs, bearing inserts, etc) in other rebuilds. I used their Gun Kote (also requires bake) as a coating in lieu of paint on this and many other bike components (including cylinder barrel, engine crankcase, sub-frame, kickstands, oil tank, etc, etc). Gun Kote creates a thin but very hard and slick coating (teflon) that transfers heat well. It seems to be very durable (MUCH more so than paint. Does not chip). It comes in colors including clear. I fabricated an aluminum bulkhead to close in the rear of the frame and gave it a sanded finish then applied clear GK 10 years ago. It still looks like new and the slick surface helps it stay clean. If I had a large enough oven I would use it for coating frames.
Rebuild 1st startup issue


First time I used their stuff was in 1979 rebuild. I really like their products. They are in Taylor TX, not far from me. Owner's name is Joe Fazio. Good guy. 512.352.3245. https://www.kgcoatings.com/.

Net/net I am glad I used GK on the cam given the endless kicking scenario. YMMV. Once started I followed the CNW recommendations in another thread and used 30 wt non detergent oil and ran the engine at 3000 rpm for 6-7 minutes until the oil heated up and when cool re-torqued everything. I drained oil, cleaned screen, & replaced filter then and after first 50 mile run focused on loading rings with repeated progressive throttle surges and engine load deceleration. The drained oil was much blacker with the GK than would be w/o. The magnetic drain plug had some small chips, but not much different than I recall in previous cam changes. I plan to drain and refill again at 250 miles.

I also plan to re-install the PA unit for re-try and if it still doesn't work to send back to PA for test.

Dave Winship
 
Coated cam with assembly lube during assembly and poured oil into valve openings several times when kicking it over (thinking it might start). Still, as you infer, a less than optimum situation.

I also coated the cam with KG Industries Gear Kote before assembly (thin dry film lube using moly - requires sand blast prep and small spray gun (I use Harbor Freight for blast and spray - although they do now offer Gear Kote in rattle cans) and one hour bake at 300 degrees and an understanding wife). I debated doing this and my research only found one cam supplier who mentioned it (positively) and found no one who warned not to do it. My concern was that it might interfere with (extend?) the initial bedding in and work hardening of the cam lobes. On the other hand, it seemed that the coating of the lobe peaks would be short lived at best, and I decided that the coating would be more + than -.

I have used this product on other engine, gearbox and other internal "working" components that could use added lubrication protection (piston skirts, gears, valve springs, bearing inserts, etc) in other rebuilds. I used their Gun Kote (also requires bake) as a coating in lieu of paint on this and many other bike components (including cylinder barrel, engine crankcase, sub-frame, kickstands, oil tank, etc, etc). Gun Kote creates a thin but very hard and slick coating (teflon) that transfers heat well. It seems to be very durable (MUCH more so than paint. Does not chip). It comes in colors including clear. I fabricated an aluminum bulkhead to close in the rear of the frame and gave it a sanded finish then applied clear GK 10 years ago. It still looks like new and the slick surface helps it stay clean. If I had a large enough oven I would use it for coating frames.
Rebuild 1st startup issue


First time I used their stuff was in 1979 rebuild. I really like their products. They are in Taylor TX, not far from me. Owner's name is Joe Fazio. Good guy. 512.352.3245. https://www.kgcoatings.com/.

Net/net I am glad I used GK on the cam given the endless kicking scenario. YMMV. Once started I followed the CNW recommendations in another thread and used 30 wt non detergent oil and ran the engine at 3000 rpm for 6-7 minutes until the oil heated up and when cool re-torqued everything. I drained oil, cleaned screen, & replaced filter then and after first 50 mile run focused on loading rings with repeated progressive throttle surges and engine load deceleration. The drained oil was much blacker with the GK than would be w/o. The magnetic drain plug had some small chips, but not much different than I recall in previous cam changes. I plan to drain and refill again at 250 miles.

I also plan to re-install the PA unit for re-try and if it still doesn't work to send back to PA for test.

Dave Winship

This has been a very interesting an informative thread. Thank you to all who have contributed. I am interested because I have a new Power Arc also and am having fits starting the bike. When it finally starts it runs, idles and drives great. After reading this thread I ordered a Boyer Mk IV for a try. Fred at Old Brits is a good guy and has spoken with me about my trouble but still no resolution. I'm jealous of all of you with your one or two kick starts! I'm writing this now because Dave's last post was almost a year ago and I'm interested if he did put the Power Arc back on to determine if it was the unit or the ground wire. Ron
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top