primary chain
- Thread starter brf1957
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Common guys.
The vast majority of all triplex is crap. Laverdas had the same issues until they tried
a Mercedes diesel, must be deisel, chain.
I have told several now to Norton owners but mostly across the channel and the results
have mirrored Laverda....excellent.
You dont have to buy from me I think Sprockets unlimited should be able to do it, ask for
D67HP, and yes for the umptieth it is duplex but will out perform any triplex on the market.
Current cost from me around £50.
Andy
The vast majority of all triplex is crap. Laverdas had the same issues until they tried
a Mercedes diesel, must be deisel, chain.
I have told several now to Norton owners but mostly across the channel and the results
have mirrored Laverda....excellent.
You dont have to buy from me I think Sprockets unlimited should be able to do it, ask for
D67HP, and yes for the umptieth it is duplex but will out perform any triplex on the market.
Current cost from me around £50.
Andy
Tsubaki were a very good product but I stopped after a couple of failures on
Vincents. I was told by Tsubaki that that particular chain was made "out off house".
I think it shoild be noted that in general you get what you pay for.
The prices go from £22 to £57 app. A guy in Roeslare show paid over £80 for
a Renold!!!!!!!
I know the chain makes concerned but do your digging. The most expensive is
Renold and I still wont sell the stuff.
Andy
Vincents. I was told by Tsubaki that that particular chain was made "out off house".
I think it shoild be noted that in general you get what you pay for.
The prices go from £22 to £57 app. A guy in Roeslare show paid over £80 for
a Renold!!!!!!!
I know the chain makes concerned but do your digging. The most expensive is
Renold and I still wont sell the stuff.
Andy
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brf1957 said:
Give Andover a call and ask them what the guarantee is in miles and time. Make sure your sprockets are aligned (my favourite subject) in two planes. Or give Andychain or The ChainGang (Sprockets Unlimited) a call.
highdesert said:
The primary chain, or belt, does not reciprocate, it goes around and around. So the difference in mass has little or no effect on vibration. More important to ensure sprockets, but essential pulleys are square in two planes. Not so much for vibration but to stop the pulleys from destroying the belts. Pistons reciprocate, they go back and forth.
Oops! Bit out of date, assumed it was a new thread - need to look at the date of posting
.Technically put the duplex on the inboard teeth but please beware.
There has been mention on the forum that duplex chains fail, with pictures.
The chain pictured was a standard duplex with a pin dia of 3.31 wheras the
Merc deisel chain has a dia of 4.41. iwis make duplex for petrol and deisel
Mercs and they are very different.
No chain manufacturer will give a mileage especially on replacements.
But you should get many tens of thousands, one thread said a chain failed
at 150,000 !!!!!!!!!!!
Dont ask for a mileage, ask if it has a chromised pin.
Again if LAB can help I will post pics of both types of duplex.
Andy
There has been mention on the forum that duplex chains fail, with pictures.
The chain pictured was a standard duplex with a pin dia of 3.31 wheras the
Merc deisel chain has a dia of 4.41. iwis make duplex for petrol and deisel
Mercs and they are very different.
No chain manufacturer will give a mileage especially on replacements.
But you should get many tens of thousands, one thread said a chain failed
at 150,000 !!!!!!!!!!!
Dont ask for a mileage, ask if it has a chromised pin.
Again if LAB can help I will post pics of both types of duplex.
Andy
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- Jan 27, 2008
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- 1,607
I personally will not buy another Renold chain.
I used a Renold on my Ranger - which uses the same single row type (428) as the Atlas. At 300 miles, the chain separated, six links away from the master link. It seems Renold had done a rather poor job peening over the pin, and the plate popped off. When this happened, the deformed link exited through my primary, at the very front of the case, breaking out a chunk of the inner and outer halves. Luckily, no damage to the engine.
I wrote to Renold, thinking they would be concerned about such a failure - they couldn't care less.
Replaced that chain with a D.I.D. Gold 428, which is rated at nearly double the tensile strength of the Renold at just over half the price, and never looked back.
Sounds like the 2-row diesel chain is the nuts. If there are specs on the tensile strength, it should be an easy comparison.
I used a Renold on my Ranger - which uses the same single row type (428) as the Atlas. At 300 miles, the chain separated, six links away from the master link. It seems Renold had done a rather poor job peening over the pin, and the plate popped off. When this happened, the deformed link exited through my primary, at the very front of the case, breaking out a chunk of the inner and outer halves. Luckily, no damage to the engine.
I wrote to Renold, thinking they would be concerned about such a failure - they couldn't care less.
Replaced that chain with a D.I.D. Gold 428, which is rated at nearly double the tensile strength of the Renold at just over half the price, and never looked back.
Sounds like the 2-row diesel chain is the nuts. If there are specs on the tensile strength, it should be an easy comparison.
Bill as a Brit and Renold shareholder I am sad at both the attitude and quality
of the new Renold.
Please do not be dragged into the myth that is tensile strength. If you do the maths
or use a chain calculation programe, chain should not be on bikes fullstop. A primary drive
running at high rpm has very low torque which is good for chain. A light chain of high
quality is far better than a heavu duty item. Besides that many Brit bikes use crank links,
I know boring, and modern chains do not have them.
I would suspect your chain a an outer or soft link fitted. I have never liked these and will
not use them. I always re-use the link I break out of the chain. The outer or soft link is what it
says on the tin, it has soft ends so the fitter can try to replicate "factory" finish. This soft end
is the problem as the force needed to get the plate off, at least on well made chains like iwis,
plug plug, would destroy a soft rivet. Watch me rivet chains at shows and it takes a couple
of taps one to deform the head another to jar the plate into the deformation.
Please not that bikes do not break chains, if they do there is a problem, they wear them. So
a big heavy chain thrashing round is bad. The Merc duplex has several advantages over the triplex.
Firstly it is lighter, secondly the pin is fully supported, thirdly the pin is bigger but most importantly
the steel and build quality is automotive. Breaking load does not come into it.
Your namesake Bill Terry of TT Race Engine in the USA was sceptial when I told him there was an iwis
simplex chain that would happily replace the duplex in Jaguar engines. That was until he tried one.
Andy
I will also repeat chain problems are a relatively modern thing we never had such issues with the
good old made in UK Renold.
of the new Renold.
Please do not be dragged into the myth that is tensile strength. If you do the maths
or use a chain calculation programe, chain should not be on bikes fullstop. A primary drive
running at high rpm has very low torque which is good for chain. A light chain of high
quality is far better than a heavu duty item. Besides that many Brit bikes use crank links,
I know boring, and modern chains do not have them.
I would suspect your chain a an outer or soft link fitted. I have never liked these and will
not use them. I always re-use the link I break out of the chain. The outer or soft link is what it
says on the tin, it has soft ends so the fitter can try to replicate "factory" finish. This soft end
is the problem as the force needed to get the plate off, at least on well made chains like iwis,
plug plug, would destroy a soft rivet. Watch me rivet chains at shows and it takes a couple
of taps one to deform the head another to jar the plate into the deformation.
Please not that bikes do not break chains, if they do there is a problem, they wear them. So
a big heavy chain thrashing round is bad. The Merc duplex has several advantages over the triplex.
Firstly it is lighter, secondly the pin is fully supported, thirdly the pin is bigger but most importantly
the steel and build quality is automotive. Breaking load does not come into it.
Your namesake Bill Terry of TT Race Engine in the USA was sceptial when I told him there was an iwis
simplex chain that would happily replace the duplex in Jaguar engines. That was until he tried one.
Andy
I will also repeat chain problems are a relatively modern thing we never had such issues with the
good old made in UK Renold.
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- Apr 6, 2013
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- 1,446
have you found the need or anyone to machine off the extra row of teeth for a reasonable cost.
No need and very little weight saving.
As stated before 99% of triplex are now made to a price rather than a quality.
I have found only one European brand that works on Vincents, where they have to use triplex
because of the dynamo drive. I have sold a couple for Commandos where the owners, or in one
case the owners "engine man", would not believe the duplex would work
Strange that a chain that works perfectly well on triple Laverdas, the proof is I havent sold any
since the initial rush years ago, will not work on a twin Commando.
Apologies to those who actually have taken my advise, although once again some feedback would
be good.
Andy
As stated before 99% of triplex are now made to a price rather than a quality.
I have found only one European brand that works on Vincents, where they have to use triplex
because of the dynamo drive. I have sold a couple for Commandos where the owners, or in one
case the owners "engine man", would not believe the duplex would work
Strange that a chain that works perfectly well on triple Laverdas, the proof is I havent sold any
since the initial rush years ago, will not work on a twin Commando.
Apologies to those who actually have taken my advise, although once again some feedback would
be good.
Andy
this post is very interesting
Many Commandos have been run on triplex chains since they left the factory
has the quality of the chains really deteriorated that much ?
I would dare bet you could fit any branded chain like Renold / Tsubaki / Iwis and get 10K trouble free miles if the chain is maintained and adjusted correctly
it seems every replacement component now has to be bullet proof and capable of race performance before owners will even consider fitting it
As for me leave it stock and just keep riding ( if it ain`t broke don't fix it )
Many Commandos have been run on triplex chains since they left the factory
has the quality of the chains really deteriorated that much ?
I would dare bet you could fit any branded chain like Renold / Tsubaki / Iwis and get 10K trouble free miles if the chain is maintained and adjusted correctly
it seems every replacement component now has to be bullet proof and capable of race performance before owners will even consider fitting it
As for me leave it stock and just keep riding ( if it ain`t broke don't fix it )
Iwis no longer make the triplex, shame it was the best.
To my knowledge Tsubaki, also a good brand gets triplex made "out of house" as I found
out when it started faling.
As for Renold it is not the same quality as it was. Good stuff as original Norton marked RENOLD
UK or RENOLD ENGLAND, current stuff marked RENOLD.
If you are doing 2-3000 miles a year you can put any chain on and not worry. My point is simple,
if there is a bullet proof alternative that will outlive the bike that is proven in the same application,
Laverda, then why pay the same sort of money for an unknown quantity.
For the record I do sell a triplex chain that is European made but it the same sort of cost as a
bullet proof iwis duplex and in my humble opinion is not as good a product.
For those who want to see go to your local Merc dealer and compare the diesel chain des D67HP.
To my knowledge Tsubaki, also a good brand gets triplex made "out of house" as I found
out when it started faling.
As for Renold it is not the same quality as it was. Good stuff as original Norton marked RENOLD
UK or RENOLD ENGLAND, current stuff marked RENOLD.
If you are doing 2-3000 miles a year you can put any chain on and not worry. My point is simple,
if there is a bullet proof alternative that will outlive the bike that is proven in the same application,
Laverda, then why pay the same sort of money for an unknown quantity.
For the record I do sell a triplex chain that is European made but it the same sort of cost as a
bullet proof iwis duplex and in my humble opinion is not as good a product.
For those who want to see go to your local Merc dealer and compare the diesel chain des D67HP.
Please read the all the posts on this.
Most triplex chains are now made "out of house" which means they are built to a price rather than quality.
Regina is a good chain and I sell it where iwis do not make a size.
The whole point of the duplex is simple, firstly if it had been available at the time bike manufacturers would
have used it, however iwis as a company will only produce to specific cam chain lengths, for example Mercedes.
If you ask for a length in another number of links, say 92 for Norton you will not get it. The chain used has a big
pin 4.44 against the standard 3.31 and where as on triplex and duplex the centre plates are a slide fit, allowing pin flex,
the Merc centre plate is a press fit supporting the pin. It also has no rollers to fail as it is a bush chain and above all
the material spec far outweighs any triplex. Add to this a triplex weighs over 1kg per mt and the Merc chain weighs
under 1kg per mt, important in high speed drives.
This subject has been done to death and still the debate appears to go on.
I am at the Stafford show and would like some of the NOC to come and see the differences then we can perhaps
lay this to rest.
Andy
Most triplex chains are now made "out of house" which means they are built to a price rather than quality.
Regina is a good chain and I sell it where iwis do not make a size.
The whole point of the duplex is simple, firstly if it had been available at the time bike manufacturers would
have used it, however iwis as a company will only produce to specific cam chain lengths, for example Mercedes.
If you ask for a length in another number of links, say 92 for Norton you will not get it. The chain used has a big
pin 4.44 against the standard 3.31 and where as on triplex and duplex the centre plates are a slide fit, allowing pin flex,
the Merc centre plate is a press fit supporting the pin. It also has no rollers to fail as it is a bush chain and above all
the material spec far outweighs any triplex. Add to this a triplex weighs over 1kg per mt and the Merc chain weighs
under 1kg per mt, important in high speed drives.
This subject has been done to death and still the debate appears to go on.
I am at the Stafford show and would like some of the NOC to come and see the differences then we can perhaps
lay this to rest.
Andy
Hi Andy, I always enjoy your input on this forum, thanks for taking the time to post here. My question to you at the moment is about the Mercedes diesel duplex. If ordering from a car dealer or parts house, is the D67HP the correct length out of the box? Personally I would just get one from you if I needed one , (but I don't at the moment), since you're offering your services here. This duplex chain option that you're filling us in on, seems like the easiest and most economical, way to go for a repair or replacement. So anyway, are they the right length out of the box?
That is the problem, they need shortening and with the press fit middle plate
they are a bastard to adapt. I have been doing for many years and have the knack.
The nearest is a Merc part number 003.997.5394 which is 126 link and you need 92.
Also you might get a shock on the price Mercedes charge.
Andy
they are a bastard to adapt. I have been doing for many years and have the knack.
The nearest is a Merc part number 003.997.5394 which is 126 link and you need 92.
Also you might get a shock on the price Mercedes charge.
Andy
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